AnyRail Model Railroad Forum

Over on TrainBord.com a member presented a "challenge i.e. fit N into a large space.

Here's the basic suggestion I came up with. Min height of the visible portion is 54", with staging tucked under each Division point. Height at the Summit is 73". Max grade is 2% climbing out of Town A all the rest is less. The operating challenge will be the bottle necks of the single track in the locations where there was no room to put in the second track. I know a lot of places like that.  :D  ;)   :D

I left lots of room for many operators as well as being able to shoot good stills and/or video.

PS No, the mainline will not be that straight, this is more or less a schematic rendition, rather than a finished trackplan. :o  :o

very well done!
i like the large radius curves throughout.
i agree that the single track mainline in places will make this an interesting challenge for operators.
the different heights of trackwork also add to the visual interest.
you have quite the creative gift and i appreciate you sharing it!
peace,
Gary

Added a few more items.
Mining town with either the old-fashioned tipple loading - lots of fun doing all the car shuffling - or with a flood loader to load unit trains. Busy place either way!
Since roundy-round continuous running was desirable I also added the connection between the two division points, hinged to be swung out of the way, just like a gate.

Note to Jeff:
How about you add all the good stuff for the two division points and the industries?  ;) ;) :)

I don't know, HJ. I think you're leaving out some goodies all over the place and there are some really big areas of the room that aren't used at all. Still, I'll throw in a few odds and ends at division points (yes, I DO mean engine services :) ). It sounds a lot like he wants to run long trains and I can think of a scenario or two that would fit well with your track plan IF I throw in just a few things. I'm going to look at it more closely tomorrow, if I get the chance. I think that in that big a space, we could hand him a lovely piece of either the C&O or the N&W in late steam / early diesel days. Did he specify locale or era or what kind of traffic at all? Or we could call it one of the larger branchlines of those two roads... I feel like the single-track main idea will still work, then, with a junction at one of the division points (like the Pennsy at Altoona).

Umm, you didn't drop the link to the challenge. I found that there are a LOT of challenges on that board. Does it specify/require code 55??? I find that I can't do nearly enough of what I want with the limited selection of code 55. Specifically, the available turnouts don't match well with the 10 degree-and-up crossovers :( . p.s. especially if it's #5, #7, or #10 turnouts? The only one that you can get to match the crossovers is a #5...

Jeff,

Here's the Link. (http://www.trainboard.com/grapevine/showthread.php?139533-Gargantuan-layout-challenge) Lots of specifications, wishes and such. Yes, Atlas C55 is one of the druthers. The first two pages of that thread sort most of the "must"- amongst them a "Walmart".

I purposely left LOTS of ROOM for operators - at least four foot aisles even more where I know people will congregate. I have operated on some very large layouts - apart from having my own 29x29ft HO NG empire - where aisles were too narrow and people were constantly in each others way.
In addition to that it's a "teach the man to fish", he has a copy of AR and getting some of the basics down was the intent.

And there is: 
"Any fool can make something complicated. It takes a genius to make it simple."
― Woody Guthrie
:o ;) :D

PS Always liked Woody's philosophy (from songs, to books and on)

Hey all. Hans let me know there was a discussion going on over here. So here I am. I'm the one that going to be building a 40' by 60' train room. Some details:

Will be freelance with real world scenes
Base bench height will be 55" (I am 79")
Will be using atlas code 55 track( mostly flex, #10 switches on main, or anywhere my longer cars will run, #7 in those areas adjacent to main,  #5 will most likely be reserve for spot for my smaller cars/locos will be)
Not planning more than one level at this point, however there will be staging below the main level.
Will be modeling 70's to present, I like big power, nut a few steamers may make it on the layout now and again.
I don't care what it costs or how long it takes me, its a hobby and I will build as funds and time are available.
I am not looking for this to operate as a real railroad, I want it to be fun but challenging.
Not modeling any particular road or area, if I see something I like and it will work on the layout it goes in.

What hans has done is amazing so far and has given me the motivation to proceed with planning this layout in earnest.
I have at least three years until ground breaking to finalize(or be very close) the trackplan and to build my inventory of locos/rolling stock/scenery/ect. This I have a good start on already as I have been purchasing item on and off for the last ten years, just never had the space or time to put something totally together.

This will be DCC, I have a digitrax chief. Eventually I will have it computer control thru loconet.

Anymore question feel free to ask.

Jody

And yes I want a walmart ( reason is that Walmart was very good to my dad for alot of years) anyone have an N scale walmart truck?

Hi Jody, welcome to the forum!

Here's another thing about large layouts: they take a lot of time, effort and perseverance to build. Planning building in stages gets some results without having to look at the whole big enchilada. If I would tackle this project my stages would look like this:

Green is the first stage
Brown the second stage
Attach a temporary balloon track to each end as work progresses. Not only does one get to watch trains roll, one is troubleshooting/proving at the same time. The other thing I firmly believe in: when proving the layout have a note pad handy and write down every snag or fix it right there and then. "Getting around to it" items tend to accumulate very rapidly.  ;)  ;)

Welcome to the battlefield, Jody :)

40 x 60 feet... I wish I had 4 x 6 feet! Anyway, one of the reasons we love AnyRail is that it will handle designs of any size, in all scales. I'm going to do two designs for you, one will be an expansion of HJ's design and one will be more of my idea of a big railroad. I do want to ask a few questions that should make your desires a lot clearer for me.

First, you say you want code 55. Do you realize how much extra work that can be? You're limited in the track items available, for one thing. You specify Atlas code 55, but that one system may not have items you need (like a crossover to fit in with your #10 turnouts, putting parallel double-track at the proper distance for clearance). Also, you will need to go over every piece of rolling stock to assure that the flanges are small enough to run reliably on code 55. I can imagine that running back and forth to deal with derailments in a 40x60 space won't be fun! You'll also need to check the gauge on every wheelset and adjust or replace where necessary.

Second, do you have any druthers on the railroad theme? You've nailed down the modeling era, but what kind of a railroad is it- granger railroad (mostly flat-land and rolling smaller hills)? Coal hauler? General freight? And how about passenger service?

As for the Wal-Mart, I'm not aware of anything specifically Wal-Mart, except, I think I saw a model of the original Wal-Mart store in Bentonville once. It might be available through Walther's. If I had to model one of their ubiquitous trucks, I'd get some blank 18-wheelers and then look for Wal-Mart decals.

That's about it, right now. I can't think of much else to ask, though I'm sure others will occur to me.

Quote from: Jeff on February 02, 2012, 02:16:45 PM

Second, do you have any druthers on the railroad theme? You've nailed down the modeling era, but what kind of a railroad is it- granger railroad (mostly flat-land and rolling smaller hills)? Coal hauler? General freight? And how about passenger service?

Jeff,

Did you read the list and explanations in the thread I linked?

10. Varied scenery from mountains to flatland
11. Got to have a Walmart
12. A farm or two
13. Lots of bridges
14. A few tunnels
15. Mix of modern and hometown buildings

20. Must be fun to operate, challenging but fun
22. Passenger service and the occasional steam powered excursions

And a bunch more as that thread progresses.

BTW on the turnouts/switches, how about mix and match? More than one C55 system on the market. :)

Jeff,

My vision so to speak is to have some large industries, autorack yard, intermodal yard, grain elevators and a seaport that'll have room for container ship, oil tanker and cargo ship. I see a some smaller coal mines, a logging industry. A big classification yard that'll divvy up all this cargo that'll be coming and going. I'll have alot of room just on one level, and in time it may go to two, but I want to stay away from helixes if I can, with the length of the building I think I can pull off a nolix with the trains peeking in and out around the mountains on one side. Staging will be underneath the opposite side.

As far as track, code 55 it is, I may either make my own turnouts for those spots that need something custom or figure out some obstacle that needs to be inserted so we get some track separation. Gotta love flex track. The dual main will have alot of long sweeping turns. I will plan for passenger service, Maybe at some point a high speed bullet train may come to the layout. :)
I am pretty much open for anything as space will allow.

Jody

Thanks, Jody, that makes things a lot clearer (without being TOO clear, if ya know what I mean...). Ok, I like the way you want to go- heavy-duty railroading and no nonsense. I also agree completely with the idea of staying away from helixes. It's not hard at all to construct a 2%-or-less ramp down to staging. If you want to see what I did in the way of a 'large' layout, take a look on the AR home page under 'Examples'. It was a while ago, but I still remember how (I think :) ). In the four-track main areas, express freight and passenger is the two middle tracks (right-hand running). So, if you want challenges, you can run those long freights (I figure 25-40 cars, maybe) while trying to do doodle-bug freights and local switching (and playing piano?). I figure that being in 10 places at once is enough challenge for weekdays, at least. Oh, and for high-speed runs, consider the European TGV. They're considering bringing them here in Ohio, for one.

BTW, is this a detached garage or part of the house?

Jeff,

I looked at that huge layout before and I still think you missed some elementary things i.e. which parts are layout and which parts are aisle ways?  ;)  ;) And where exactly are the scenic deviders? ??? ???

Getting one thing out of the way... "BTW on the turnouts/switches, how about mix and match? More than one C55 system on the market". True. There are two. Neither of them is engineered to complement the other, unlike Atlas c80 and Peco c80.

As for my Heavy Rail, It is a pure track plan, not a landscaped layout. Also, I engineered it to be flexible in a very literal sense- you can take sections and bend or twist the connectors. It's very much a series of LDE's, though some of the connectors represent important LDE's themselves. And, of course, it's almost 3 years old-ish. I suppose I could revise it to take advantage of all the tools that have been added to AR, but that would be a lot of work. As it stands, everything was laid parallel 'by eye' instead of using the parallel track tool.

I do wish I'd had that tool for ALL of my layouts!

Thanks to Hans for the ideas!!! I've worked the bench plan a bit, well quite a bit. I don't expect throngs of people coming over so I added a bit of benchwork. I still kept the aisles at around 48" for the most part. I need to add back in the grain silo piece from Hans along one of the longer straight sections. I tailored down my Auto rack facility (took away the 6 track storage yard) and extended the loco area to make sure I have room for an off track fueling tank. Also added a grade up to the facility to seperate it more from the mainline. I need to come up with a good set of tracks near the autorack facility to house the car manufacturing plant. This plant will be recieving car parts (still need to research and see what all comes by rail and what rolling stock I'll need) and the finished cars are then moved to the autorack facility for shipment.

Any ideas are greatly appreciated.

Jody,

I'm still working on my version, which is quite a bit different from HJ's. It's going to take a while to fill up that big space of yours and I have other things taking up time. I will get it done as soon as possible. Is that 'entry' area a fixed item?

Jeff,

The entry area is just reserved space, no walls or anything like that. I wanted to make sure that i had enough room for the door swings and enough space to bring materials in and out of the roll up door.

Jody

Jody,

I wish I had just half of your room.

Here is an idea for one of your peninsulas.  The engineer of the local freight train has to switch the industries, stay out of the way of the express traffic and the local passenger train.  It's specifically designed to be fun and challenging or why would the REA/RPO siding be buried so deep.

Just a thought, but if you are going to have lots of people operating at the same time, I think you will like to have some of them stop for several minutes at a peninsula (local freight and passenger trains) and some cruising through the layout (express freight and passenger).

Chaz

Chaz,

I like it!
REA/RPO used to have a direct connection but they lost it when ... those other guys arrived and a run-around track other than part of the station track was required.
There's humour in there, also like the cheese place beside the fertilizer outfit.  :D :D

HJ

I put all the things that could explode next to the cheese factory.  After the explosion, everything would be covered in mozzarella.  Kind of like Salvadore Dali's clocks.

Chaz

Well, now, chaz that's really a good piece. You're thinking a bit on the modest side, but I can find a place for it on the branch line. I've been considering a small refinery at some point- AR does such nice circles... And I know that I really should have one, since the power will be Heavy diesel. There WILL be a couple of coal/wood dealers. No, not for steam engines (though when the railroad PR department decides it's time for a few fan trips, they do come in handy!). Actually, they'll be there to support household airtight stoves for heating in these days of expensive natural gas and electricity. I've also got to put in a furniture factory to generate wood scraps for heating (that being what I do here). I'm not sure I want to put that LPG dealer in there, though. There have been too many people who have seen what happens when you put a gas dealer in a residential area. Or even an industrial area. One example unloaded on people about 90 miles from here. And it wasn't even a  dealer, like the one around Baltimore. Anyway, some remnant gas pockets in a couple of tanks being cleaned ignited. This was an industrial tank dealership and about a 200x500 foot building. They had to bulldoze what little was left. Even big tanks were burning, so there wasn't enough left to even think the word 'salvage'. As I recall, there were like 3 people killed and a half dozen injured. It was so low a count because it was third shift. So... I'm afraid the gas dealer will be off a ways from anything valuable!

Jody, that's good news! That means that that side of the layout can be accessible.

Quote from: chaz on February 09, 2012, 09:11:01 PM
HJ

I put all the things that could explode next to the cheese factory.  After the explosion, everything would be covered in mozzarella.  Kind of like Salvadore Dali's clocks.

Chaz

That's the spirit!  ;D ;D

I have to confess, I created this industrial area with KATO Unitrack.  It's based on a layout in Colorado that no longer exists.

The era is the 1960s and many farmers had LPG powered tracktors that applied anhydrous ammonia to fertilize the corn for the grain coop and to feed the cows that produced the milk that was made into cheese that was sold to Pizza Hut to make pizzas.  I like to think that a molecule of my DNA got into every Pizza Hut pizza back then.  Passenger service was a daily Puddle Jumper.

Chaz

"I have to confess, I created this industrial area with KATO Unitrack."

That's ok, anything you can do with Kato, I can do with flex track (and then some, obviously).
I love layouts in large spaces. It's like writing-- if you're writing a short story, you struggle to get your point across, but if you're doing a novel, you really tell the whole story and include background color, too.

p.s. Thanks for the DNA, it was delicious!

You guys are too much.  ;D

Actually the cheeses factory is a good idea as dad used to deliver cheese back in the day. I think I may even have a hat or two with the logo somewhere, mmm Clearfield Cheese, I ate alot of it growing up and even had the misfortune of helping unload 48' trailers of the stuff, by hand.

Jody

Oil refinery is a plus.

This staging area is "OFF LAYOUT".  That is, it is the most Northerly and at the same time, the most Southerly destination possible.  There are enough tracks to store 7 trains between operating sessions and a workbench.  For example, Southbound trains are leaving Canada, on their way to Mexico...and Northbound trains are leaving Mexico, on their way to Canada.

The dispatcher controls all the turnouts and can dispatch both Northbound and Southbound traffic.  I assumed this is a 1 track branch line, so every Northbound and Southbound train on the layout will pass each other and sometimes, high priority trains will overtake low priority trains in the same direction.  The dispatcher will be a busy person.  If it gets, dull, the dispatcher will send some extras that are not in the plan.

In a normal operating cycle, each train will work one direction, returning to the Staging yard and then work the other direction after a short break for beans.

The trains need to run the gamut of skill level.  Everybody starts out at the novice level and all are welcome.

Chaz

Chaz,

I cleaned up your Unitrack a tiny bit and tweaked it a little. It will fit nicely in one corner of the branchline. Oh, how I wish we had Objects in place. They would be such a help. BTW, chaz, do you know what happens when a train has a hot box right in the middle of a single-track main? Instant Dispatcher Nervous Breakdown!!!

Anyway, that industrial park is just right. The double track fits well, too, since this will be a double-traffic branchline (the main is 4-track).

I did leave the cheese in place. Perhaps you could find one of the hats and scan the logo? :)

I'll be visiting dad this weekend and I now he's got some stuff around from back then.

Jody

Jody,

This is a peek at the current state of mess (progress) on the plan. Much of the space is still well empty and things like towns and industrial sidings are missing. This railroad has 3 significant "Divisions": Eastern [coal and oil + byproducts], Mountain [just something that gets in the way of cheaper tracklaying, as the engineering dept. says], and Western [The rest of the world once past the mountains]. Obviously this layout isn't necessarily confined to one prototype, allowing you the ultimate freedom in rolling stock. If going for the ultimate, I would create a complete fantasy railroad, including a unique logo and color scheme. I'm sticking to those #10 turnouts wherever possible. There are places where you want a curved turnout and there I went with the Peco #8's. The Atlas curved are there, but they're like a #5. Yes, the real mainline is 4-track. That leads to a number of problems, but at least they're ones shared by the real railroads, which is part of the fun of modeling. There were a number of real examples in my experience, which is a plus. The temptation to throw in EVERYTHING is a constant threat :D

QuoteThe temptation to throw in EVERYTHING is a constant threat

Yep, the kitchen sink and the proverbial "camel".  ;D ;D

Well, I feel I'm doing fairly at the moment in keeping things reasonable for such a large space. Anyway, it's a long way from finished. Progress is reasonable for a lead time of 2-3 years and it will be done and polished long before that. Ah, if only I'd had DCC when I built #96! I do like the Gulf shore's possibilities there. I can put in oil export, fruit, pecans, fresh seafood, etc. and never have to worry about mountains in that part of the layout. All in all, things are doing well on it.

Jeff,

While you're at it, have you figured out the cost of just the turnouts for what you have down in the plan so far? Add one servo per turnout together with DCC decoders for just those turnouts.  ???  ??? If the planning lead time is 2 to 3 years I guess the projected building time will be between 15 and 30 years?  ;D ;D
Jody would be well advised to open a LHS (together with an  in order to get the maximum discount on all supplies required. If the IRS would allow him to write off the "goodies" as advertising, promotions and parts for how-to classes he plans on giving .... I have no idea, since I reside in Canada.  ;D ;D

BTW cost estimates per square foot of N-scale layout are approx. US$ 90 - 135 ...... if you do all the work yourself.  :o  :o ;)  ;)  Not exactly chicken feed.

OTOH if you don't have to finance or build it yourself ... no problem whatsoever!  ;)

Jeff,

Awesome so far!!!! I like the river running thru it, reminds me of the main line running along the Juniata up in Pa. I do have a question, those two grey areas, what are they? Feel free to throw as much in there as it will support. I like the idea of a mountain area as I think modeling a helper service would be fun. I've also been entertaining the thought of my own road name and color scheme, just need to get some painting supplies and give it a go.

Hans,

I've been stocking up on switches, turnout machines, track ect. Every month I add to the stash. As this plan goes forward and gets more detail I'll keep adding the items that are needed. I've got a good start on Loco's, still need about ten times what I got. I've been adding DCC to them as I get them. Good start on autoracks and well cars too. Next month is going to be track month for the train budget. Hope to add 10 more switches and another case of flex to the pile. We'll see, I've got a couple extra trips to Pa planned and Diesel fuel went up so my train budget is gonna take a hit. Good thing I'm gettinga raise again this year :)

Jody

Jody,

I know the stocking up routine. Had more than one customer so far who did that and then needed what was there incorporated in the layout. It doesn't lower the cost per square foot, it just spreads it out.  ;)

I'm sure you'll let us know as the project moves along. ;) Will be interesting to hear how it goes.
I always like to compare projects that are really large. There's a new one going up in the neighbourhood. Guy had this large layout - four levels with a gazillion turnouts, fully DCC complete with auto op software. Long trains, more engines than Carter had liver pills etc. etc.
It was "a bit of a challenge" - I won't list the many "surprises". In the meantime it got dismantled and a new one will be built at a new location (complete new building).
My buddy who imports the DCC system to NA, showed me the plan long before construction started and my comment was "very interesting, however this and this and this will be a major problem" (been there, seen that!). As those with religion like to say "It came to pass" and for all practical purposes it will done "new and improved" allover again. That's one of them.
Then there's the other one just around the corner, also HO just like the above.
The old layout had more levels than I could ever figure and definitely assign - operating layout with aisles in many locations too narrow for two people to pass each other, for the highest levels one had to stand on a foot stool. I called it the "underground railway" since tons of track was "cleverly hidden".
Anyway the guy retired, had a new house built with all of the gigantic basement dedicated to the MRR. Has been building full time for the last four years and the layout isn't operational, yet. But we hope to get back to operating next winter.
Just two cases, of many, where reality caught up with the plans in an unexpected way.  ;) ???

Jody,

Thanks :)

Any internal gray areas are actually access 'islands', not necessarily mountains. In our case, the ones to the top and top-left will very likely be mountains. I'm going to anchor one end in a version of Altoona, Pa. This, of course, leads to the famous Horseshoe Curve, which happens to be highly modelable (to coin a word). Now, if you know Pennsylvania, then you know that the mountains there aren't the raw, sharp peaks like the Rockies. Instead, they are old and rounded, bu :Pt still pretty steep-sided. There will be plenty of smaller streams at the bottom of almost every one. The river won't be the only water around. I think that docks and the importance of water is vastly under-used. Another thing about those mountains is that it's not easy to find one lone mountain- they are really many thousand-mile-long ridges that look a lot like a cross-section of a piece of cardboard and they curve from the left, at the Ohio end, to the right, on the New York/New Jersey end, in a clockwise curve. And, they range up to 2,500 feet and more. It's a huge pain to drive across and I can see why many pioneers chose to go up through New York State or down through the Cumberland gap. Even today, the area isn't what you could call 'fully settled' by any means. There are miles and miles of road between towns and gas stations and most of those miles are either up or down.
Okay! Now we have the stage set on the eastern 'end' of the road. The mainline down the back of the table at that point is ramping downward to a very big staging yard on a lower level. I think it would be just as easy to keep it out of sight and simply give hints, via train names and timetable, that that end connects to New York City and Philadelphia. As we travel westerly, I'd guess you could consider the river shown as part of the Ohio, since we can actually widen it and give room for "One Helluva Bridge" and perhaps a steel plant, since there are a number of humungous steel plants at that point. IN fact, there are few points between Stuebenville, OH and Wheeling, W.Va. that don't show evidence of the steel industry. Pittsburgh, Pa may be what the public thinks of when they think of steel, but it's far from the only place and there are numerous places here in the eastern half of Ohio. This is all very easy, since the PRR and B&O both ran through here within a 10 mile area.
That takes care of the Eastern Division. When that's done I'll move on to the Plains Division [no mountains! :)]. Good thing you like heavy power, there'll be plenty for helpers to do!

HJ,

That's really interesting! I don't suppose you could post some stealthily-taken photos?... :). I believe that AR is our 'secret weapon' in handling large layouts. I can recall clearly how bad the translation was on LHW's plan #96 to reality. Things that looked easy on paper constantly proved impossible in real life due to the gap between theoretical turnouts vs. commercially available ones. Then you get to the 'theoretical grades' vs. real grades and clearances that have to accommodate roadbed and sub-roadbed. In any case, AR will allow us to 'whittle-to-fit' easily. That's a huge plus.

No, I don't have stealthily-taken pictures  :)  ;D. I don't do that kind of thing and neither one of the layouts did lend itself to picture taking, unless you went to the macro mode or did a lot of manipulation in Photoshop. I guess the other possibility would have been a fisheye lens to capture "a bit more".
In short shooting pictures, wellllll ....  there I'm as picky as with layout design and shooting video.  :) ;)

PS As far as secret weapon goes, one of ARs outstanding features is how layers are handled, use it in dead flat mode i.e. several layers at the same level but as a function to devide a large layout into sections to pronounce the scenic changes. Or go from floor to ceiling, as long as one remembers to assign the objects to the correct layer and the correct height, it is splendid.
Instead of an enchilada think of a lasagna, the track layer is the lasagna noodles and all the other objects are the filling (mushrooms, peppers, pepperoni, tomato-sauce, cheese) layer after layer after layer.

PPS About the interesting, 25 years ago I signed up to help build a large display layout in Germany (final destination NA). He who footed the bill was still stuck in his childhood when a train layout had a certain look. It was ridiculous, much of the track that been installed already needed to be redone since trains would sideswipe each other in curves - no, they didn't try things as they went and they had no clue as far as standards are concerned. But I gladly demonstrated to them what would happen given the planned rollingstock. After three weeks I flew home, I had enough of the dilettantism that covered all, from basic workmanship to spatial perception i.e. understanding perspective, to modern building methods etc. etc. Life's too short!
After I left and one other Canadian went home a week later, he with the money hired a crew (4 people) out of the US, who left after spending four weeks at the BS. The layout was about 6 months late arriving in NA. Since it was intended as a commercial attraction that wasn't good and it went downhill from there.

Great shame since I can tell you're good at designing and building. My own frustration level has about reached the point where I'll put up SOME kind of layout, even if it's totally unsatisfactory. You can starve a model railroader just so long... I'm thinking of maybe a 6-8 inch wide layout stretching about 10 feet, built as a wall shelf. I may be able to cheat out a wide spot for a station or two, so it's likely to be a strictly point-to-point thing. It will have to be DC and I'm happy I still have some small steam power in storage along with a few 40 foot cars. I'll have to leave the bigger engines in mothballs (no sausage in the lasagna :( ).

Jody,

This is just a 'As things stand at the moment' kind of post. I assure you that things are bound to change as work goes on. It looks like it will be possible to run the layout as either two or three entire railroads, as suits your mood. There are two branch lines and the main. There is also a small logging/mining line in the mountains to the 'west'. As promised, there is enough running water to keep you busy. I've kept all main and most of the branch track radius to well over 20". I think that's good enough for any trains you can possibly run. I know that you could put every train I own on it and not even notice they were there.

There will be staging for the main railroad on a level below the main benchwork. Staging for the branchline(s) are under the main 'Eastern' mountain. That's the point where you can either run trains as one or the other branchline road. Or, you can simply use that space as staging for one big branchline. Flexibility is very important. There is still plenty to do and there are sure to be changes, especially after the main part of the work is done. There are lots of industrial and agricultural sidings to add and there's docks and such to design. As you may notice, I've put in a  version of chaz's industrial park. It seemed to fit well out in the mid-west :).

@HJ,


Yes, obviously building this layout would take a while. I can see it taking a month just to build the benchwork (with the help of others). Using commercial trackage would help a bunch. Once the benchwork is done, I think that one could have some kind of functioning segment inside of another month or so, depending on how many people and how many hours are spent. These days all you need do is drop a roadbed, apply track, and wire controls. I think wiring will be something that takes a bunch of time. Not that difficult, but simply running busses and such. I'm sure DCC will make life a lot easier.

@ Jeff,

As mentioned earlier I'll be looking forward to the progress reports from benchwork to scenery and all the gazillion details. BTW doing the DCC wiring is just liking doing plumbing in a house, it gets trickier the larger the house.  ;)  :)

Granted that it gets trickier. However, I've done my best to keep as much of it simple as possible. There really is only one area where you will encounter return loops and it's on the branchline-east. I only have one worry- will I cause AR to overheat and blow up if I try adding in the scenery, landscaping, and buildings? I had a small problem on a much smaller layout, so I have cause for wondering. I don't want to use your method of external decorating because I'm going to be doing so many mods as I polish it that having to use two or three programs to work on it would be a big pain (even if I had a current version of Corel). Maybe after it's all done I'll add some detail (about a year from now :) ).

Why should AR bog down? You just have to keep the scenery simple. Besides it will be a while before you have all the structures drawn up and condensed, then you can try how much that adds to the basic file.
If you're lucky by that time ver5 with the possibility to add libraries will be available - complete with a dead-simple routine to standardize any accessory object to the leanest and meanest format possible.  ???  ???  :o We'll call it "JPEG on steroids"!  :D :D

Since I'm not coding it, I can't tell you why it bogs down. I assume it's because I give it too many data points to handle when trying to live inside this laptop with 512 MB. Maybe this summer I can save up the money for a ram expansion... But every time I do, there's bound to be an 'emergency' of some kind :(

Hey guys, Hans Jörg and Jeff, remember me the Rheintalbahn guy from Chilliwack? I am now putting down the track in the storage yard... Thanks again for all your help!

I have been reading this thread (I do read here as a lurker since my main thing is now building my empire) and just have to shake my head. Jeff great work! However, is this going to be some N-Scale Miniatur Wunderland? One person will not be able to pull this off, never mind running and maintaining this "monster."  I wish the owner all the best in making his dream come true,  but I think he bites off too much.

Very quietly, I am thinking to myself, what a wonderful space for a decent O-Scale lay-out.... But what do I know. I will stay tuned, however.... ;)

Kai

Hi Kai,

Very keen observations, thank you  ;)  :-X.  There will always be those who dream about "that huge layout" without having experienced what really lurks behind such a huge undertaking. Always reminds me of the old saying "Papier ist geduldig".  :-\

Cheers

HJ

KaiL,
And HJ, I guess,
Yeah, I know all that about planning vs. building, but hey, it's not MY job to build it :). My only job is to plan it well and to make sure that #1- it CAN be built, and #2 Once built, it will offer a wide variety of operations.

I think I'm well on my way to that. I've got one humungous division point to put together - very Big-City and some connections to do. Then I go back over it and splice in all the sidings along the way, add a few towns where needed, and set grades. Then I do the staging underneath the main layout, which is by far the easiest part. For the most part, the mainline grade shouldn't go over 1.5 or 2%, but there are the logging/mining branches and there will be a couple of helper grades in the mountains. Finally, I haven't added the scenic divider/backgrounds. That will be the last thing done before I turn out the lights and post the Final.

But what about all the structures and scenic features to make this an "organically grown" railroad?

On that time frame, remember quite some time ago I stated "I never plan anything without considering if I could build all of that myself". Old maxim of mine that also applied in my "previous" life: "never expect anything of anyone unless you can show them how the complete job has to be done."  ;) :o

Hey! Go back to page one of this topic. Read Jody's first post. He vows to do it no matter what it takes or how long. So, I am simply following set-out requirements of the layout :). Now, if you want to complain to Jody, feel free. I've already said it all once and now I'm in it with both feet.

Quote from: Jeff on March 03, 2012, 04:52:13 PM
Hey! Go back to page one of this topic. Read Jody's first post. He vows to do it no matter what it takes or how long. So, I am simply following set-out requirements of the layout :). Now, if you want to complain to Jody, feel free. I've already said it all once and now I'm in it with both feet.

Oh I remember the parameters quite well, I just repeated my maxim in relation to the 

Quoteit's not MY job to build it .

;) :) ;)

Not that I would mind building it. Or running it. With computer control software in hand, I would bravely press onward until I laid the golden track pin...er, nail. That said, I think the finished layout plan would support maybe 10 or 12 operators or more. Sidings, etc. will allow 40-50 car trains, if one wants to use them. That should be enough to keep people busy for a while. I do hope that he posts pictures when and if he gets it going.

Jeff,

I dont believe you'd have enough years left to tackle all that from the ground up once that building is finished. Yep, the monster could easily keep 20 people busy, as long as they can get past each other. I had a big grin on my face when MR published that John Armstrong trackplan that someone found and Sperandeo in passing mentioned (he did the "review") that it is surprising that the aisles are wider than customary from Armstrong, who apparently always made them "too tight to be practical/comfortable".

BTW on my 29x29ft HOm layout in my previous life we needed a full operating crew of 12 or 13; high density mainline traffic on a point to point layout with two branchlines.  Luckily the operating session happened during the cooler months, there was a lot of heat generated by 12+ people, not mentioning the sweat pouring off the wayfreight ops who had to keep out of the way of the never ending parade of passenger trains all running on a schedule.
Our passing sidings were designed for 10 car passenger trains with the occasional station having a shorter passing siding. More sweat being shed since meets were to happen on schedule. Oh yeah, what governed the schedule? a set of 4:1 fast clocks!  ;)  :)

Quote from: Jeff on March 04, 2012, 02:08:18 AM
With computer control software in hand...

Would really be interested in knowing more about computer control software...any info or links?
Thanks much!

Gary

WOW!!! The only  concerns I have at this point are a few of the aisles are a little narrow and I'm not to keen on "access holes". However, if I go with the 16 foot ceiling like I want then those area can be walk unders. With my back I want to minimize the amount of scooching I will have to do. As far as building this behemoth, it will take time, heck I may never get it finished. But I will try as hard as I can to get it up and running. Who know's you may one day open a mag and there it will be.  ;D

I think the bench work will be easy for me as I am very good at volume production when it comes to woodworking. I do plan on having temp sections so I can run trains through out the build process and completing each section (as much as possible) before moving on to the next. The wiring won't be too bad, as an aircraft electrician for 20 years all the dcc stuff actually makes sense to me. The hard part is going to be acquiring all the components for something this size. It will be wired for complete DCC control, however I know it will take a lot of resources ($$$) to outfit everything, so some things may be temporarily controlled by other means. I do want to include the option for computer control, I think that would be fun seeing the Passenger trains running on schedule and having the numerous freights dodging them.

As far as help building this, well I don't "plan" on having much, but would not turn any away  :D

Jody

Jody,
Yes, I realize that there are some 'pinch points' in the aisles. That may well change. After all, I've only been working on this for a week or two, perfection may take a few days more :D

I applaud a 16' ceiling! Of course being 6'6" myself may have something to do with that. I wanted to minimize duckunders. With enough headroom, they might be limited to 'nod-unders'. There is a spot or two where I would rather have the benchwork connection, actually, but kept the aisles open in the name of easier access. Pretty soon it will be time to step back and see if rearranging the benchwork would ease matters in general.

I fully agree with doing it in sections. In a layout this size, attention to track joints and soldering. I recommend you get hold of a couple of Weller butane-powered mini soldering irons. They have interchangeable tips that are small enough to solder N scale rails and the tips don't cool off when making a join the way small electric irons do.

And trust me on one thing: if I was anywhere near your location, I would kill (or at least maim terribly) to be in on building it. Given a good building to put it in, I think it will become one of those layouts that gets a full article in MR.

@HJ- Sounds like a load of fun! That sweat is the reason the operating crew keeps coming back. I plan on making sure that there are challenges, since one or two of the mountain-crossings involve helpers. The big division points pretty much require a crew of at least four in order to build trains and another two or three to receive and break down incoming freights. You could run trains that are 50-100 cars. Getting a couple of 100-car freights shoved down your (yard) throat will keep people hopping, I guarantee you.

What I forgot to mention: every station had a telephone so the wayfreights (or whoever else was behind time) could call in and get instructions. That's when things went from scheduled to train orders. To make things as plain as day for the engineers - one engineer/conductor per train, 2 people on the wayfreights - I made up duty books. Told every engineer which track he'd use at which station and which trains he would meet or pass (if any).
And since it was a Swiss railroad the station names were also straight from the proto - to hear the station names mangled  ::)  ::) - and since I built all of the throttles myself it was easy enough to adjust the yardcabs for the tiny diesel switchers to max. 25kmh and the wayfreight throttles to max 55kmh with slow acceleration. Three of the eight mainline cabs used radio control throttles - for the express passenger trains - to free the engineers of some of the toggle switching.
Building it was a lot of fun even handlaying 750ft of track, building 140 switches and 4 double slip switches, all the electronics and and and. But it was also like a part time job. Not to mention coming up with solutions to problems that were absolutely bullet proof - my friends would usually say "Why couldn't I think of that?".

That's one of the reasons why I look at layouts (regardless of size) in a completely different manner - I've actually done one of the "big ones" for myself.  ;) :) And all that before DCC was "Ready" (ready as in presenting what is actually required). Or I was using CADrail to design layouts. Or had a computer - come to think of it that's why Could get so much extra done ... no distractions from computers.  ;D ;D ;D

HJ,

All your back-and-forth about handheld throttles makes me wonder why some bright light hasn't grabbed Bluetooth for that function. Look at the advantages- wireless, but you don't have to rely on a router, low power usage, and the transceiver takes up very little space/cost inside the throttle.

Jeff,

Between 1982 and 1995 when I was building on that layout a) (NMRA-) DCC was in its infancy and (IMHO) crappy b) bluetooth was something that happened when one ate blueberries. c) forget about technically advanced component off the shelf. This was 30 years ago.

Smart people had a commercial account at a large electronics supplier, instead of buying "crap" at Radio Shack. Also knew how to wire a layout with common rail, design their own circuits with relays and/or electronic components, but still had one commercial powerpack that they used on the test bench.
And then there were the others. ;)  ;)  :)

Yes, and I was speaking about NOW. And not personally, though I have paid my dues with a soldering iron in hand... It was just a general musing about how maybe equipment designers may not be using today's technology to its full advantage. For instance, I remember thinking that, when Lionel brought out its first 'cab-cam', that people would now have to detail the INSIDE of buildings, because it was likely that they would start showing up with cameras already installed in them :). I was happy to be wrong about that one! I recall that someone did put out a very nice bridge with a cam in the operators shack, but that's about as far as it went.

There is all kinds of stuff with the modern technology already on the shelf, in the pipe and in development. It's just a matter of keeping the ear to the ground and the eyes open to find out what's there, what's coming and where the trend goes. That's on the commercial end, on the DIY playground there are so many different variants it boggles the mind, some of them are even easy to interface.
Picking the right track system is child's play compared to picking the right control system.

Jody,

I thought you might be interested to see what's shaping up, so far. There are one or two sections I may rework, but it seems to be doing fairly well. I've got the bones in the right place. There's mountains, a seaport (on an inlet- think Mobile, Alabama), and there's still room to add a Walmart or two. So far it's been just the grand picture. Pretty soon it'll be time to put the decorations on the tree ;)

Jeff,

I am really liking the overall layout. I know things will need a tweak here and there, but I like the concept so far. Is there room for the auto facility on here? How about some oil loading?

Love the seaport, the bridges are going to be spectacular in that area.
I like the many yards and ability to run long trains.
Jody

I'm glad you like the progress. Oil loading... Hmm.... I don't yet have much of the industry that needs to go in. I've done my best to make sure that there will be long areas that can be simple forests, if you like, and there are certainly mountains. I also made sure that there are areas set aside for dense 'city' atmosphere. I'm not sure that I could fit in an entire oil field :). Yes, of course there will be a tank farm near the seaport where tank cars are loaded with all types of oil, tar, and refined products. I suggest the tube from the center of rolled paper towels for one size of tanks. Wrapped in aluminum (or aluminium for my UK readers) foil for that. You can cut it to many heights easily. I don't have any tips for the tank tops, though I've got to give that some thought. Oh, yes. The tubes are about 2 1/2" diameter, which is a useful size in N scale.

Anyway, there is plenty of room for an auto facility and about anything else one could want. I suggest that it goes well in the Central Division area, since there is lots of rail support and plenty of storage space. In fact, I think there's room along that part of the bottom wall to add in a tire factory. I like the idea of a 'profile' building along the wall- a couple of through tracks and the nearby yards will take care of that. More later.

This is today's update. I've been grinding away at rough edges and there are a bunch of changes and additions. It will be a matter of days and then I will set it aside for a bit, to let it cool off :). I'm still not set as to where to work the Wal-mart presence in, but be assured that it will get there. My goodness, I haven't marked anywhere near all the trestles and bridges, yet!

WOW this is absolutely massive, are you actually going to build this?

Me? Not any time this century :) Sure wish I had the room and money! I'm tossing this thing over to Jody once it's done as a suggestion of what to do with all his space. If I was close enough, I'd volunteer to come over and help with it...

All in all, it's an example of the kind of things you can do in N scale when you're not very worried about concepts like "enough space". It's still in the process of being finished and then polished.

this is a tremendous trackplan!
wow...continuous 4 track mainline, double track branch line, intermodal...
we are not suppose to covet...but then, wow!
thanks for sharing these with each update and tweaking.
great work!

Gary

You're welcome :) I get a big kick out of letting my imagination have plenty of elbow room and this plan certainly has that. What's really funny is that I've seen published plans for HO layouts that are even bigger. Some are quite good. I'm not ready to send this one out the door as 'finished'. I've spent the past two days cutting off the worst of the square corners and rough spots. It's tiring work, but every little change makes the end result better. You should start playing with the full capabilities of AR yourself. It could lead to all kinds of things :). Not that I don't like small layouts. Some of my best friends are small. Go back to that plan I published about the time you first showed up in the forums...

Quote from: glakedylan on March 12, 2012, 01:38:38 AM
this is a tremendous trackplan!
wow...continuous 4 track mainline, double track branch line, intermodal...
we are not suppose to covet...but then, wow!
thanks for sharing these with each update and tweaking.
great work!

Gary

Gary,

The planning is the easy part, the building and getting it operational is the hard part. Add a lot of skills - yes plural! - a lot of money and a lot of time and endurance.

If we're all nice Jody will have an Open House when it's finished, however ..... I turned 67 last week so I hope it will happen in my life time. Mind you, the heart surgeon said I'm better than new, all it took was a new valve and the rest is in fine shape.  :)  ;)

@ Jeff

QuoteIt's tiring work, but every little change makes the end result better.

Imagine if you would have to build it. :o  :o  :D

"Add a lot of skills - yes plural! - a lot of money and a lot of time and endurance."
Not to mention that volunteer help would be nice. I'm available, as I mentioned :)

Now, speaking of updates, I'm starting to fill in the peripheral sidings and clean up the couple of major issues I have left...

All,

You bet I'll have an open house when this gets Run-able, it may take my grandkids(which aren't born yet) to finish ;D

Once this gets far enough in the developement stage I'll design and start making the skeleton benchwork for it. Assembly will be a breeze once I have a good stock of parts cut and ready.

Jody

Glad you got back to the keyboard. I'm working on the staging layer now. Next up is creating grades and making sure I indicate where the bridges go (approximately). Then it may sit for a week or-hunt so, just to ferment properly. After that it's time to take a look at it to see if I agree with myself about certain design decisions. And it will be time to bug-hunt. On a large layout, there are so many places for them to hide!

I just hope I don't decide to scrap it and start over :) Still, I can have so much fun in this kind of space that I may do another one in the same footprint for the fun of it.

But seriously, the benchwork should be simple. I've made some edits in the past few days to remove some complications in the branchline staging area and the western mountains. Then edited more and cleaned up some train routing confusions. I know there are things not even installed yet that need doing. Any interest in having a steel mill? The automotive industry that's there could probably use one, but if not, it can just come in from off-layout via staging.

Every time I start feeling like I made it too crowded, I start counting how many feet there are between here and there and it brings me back to reality.

Been kinda busy lately, new tile floor for mom and dad. Glad it's done. I'll have another to do this summer for them.

I'm really liking how this is turning out. A couple of the benchwork are a little to close but that can be tweaked later. A steel mill would be good, car and train parts can roll on out of it all day long. This is gonna be a blast to work on and run.

Jody

Yes, I'm trying to keep aisles to a minimum of 2', but that's not necessarily easy. When it comes down to keeping the minimum curves above 20", it often takes more room to do 180+ degree turns than anyone would guess. However, you really REALLY don't want a sub-20 inch mainline curve on a 4-track main. First off it looks stupid and secondly it works even worse. Yes, once benchwork construction starts, it's easy to see and adjust aisles, so I'm not worried.

Hey Jeff,

Have you ever heard the story that railways adjust their trackage to suit the geography? They will, for instance, even go from double track to single track when things get a little tight. Increases the operational interest by leaps and bounds.

Cutting that four track main to double track would have the same effect.
On the "four track mains" concept in general, the busiest station I know of in Switzerland is Zürich. There are three double track lines plus a single track line coming into the AboveGround terminal, the train frequency is unreal. 2607 trains a day! A train arrives or departs approx. every 25 seconds.  Between 300'000 to 500'000 passengers per day.

Which brings me to the question: what is the projected train frequency on the quad-main? And the second question is: does the train frequency justify the quad-main? the third question is: or will the RR remove one and then another track (just like the prototype) in order to cut down on maintenance?   ;D ;D

Cheers

HJ

The Old Railfan -- Inspired by the real world

Valid questions, HJ. I think that with 20-40 car trains (max maybe 60(?)), you could easily run 3-4 of them at the same time in one direction (though the scheduling could get rather picky due to helper issues). That's for long haul (2 center tracks). So, you have 8 freight trains on their way, maybe one or two long-haul passenger, any number of way-freights and local passenger / commuter runs on the two outer tracks. Then you add in the branchline, with its seaport traffic in and out added to the mix. If it were me, I would send a "certain number" (no, I'm NOT telling!) of Specials through when it would do the most good (or bad). There are a certain number of crossovers that can be used in case of scheduling conflicts, but when you get down to it, there is just so much room on the rails and then you get set off on a siding somewhere in redneck country to catch up on your reading while you wait for the express to clear your block. Yes, dispatchers will be tasked with running their domain like it's really a two-way street- nominally, there are two tracks in either direction, but that can be trumped by circumstances. Given this, I think that 4 tracks will often SEEM like a single-track line to the dispatcher in charge :).

So, HJ, how many platform tracks does your Zurich Bahnhof have to service 4 inbound and 4 outbound tracks? I don't know that Jody will have the manpower to deal with 2 x 2607 trains on a fast clock daily basis (Jeff assumes a thoughtful pose and shakes his head...). I doubt, though, that it will be a comfort to the guy in the hot-seat! To more directly answer your question, I spent any number of days observing the 4-track NYC mainline about an hour and a half north of New York City. Train frequency (mid - to - late 1950's) was about 8 - 12 commuter passenger runs, 2-3 long distance passenger, and 2 or 3 long distance freights per weekday.

p.s. Let's hope that there isn't anything like a derailment, flooded track, washouts, or scheduled track replacement maintenance...

And just to illustrate a few points - they are all in RED - I measured some of the tight places. Some of them are just wide enough for a skinny person to turn around while working on something. In our house the narrowest doorways are 29" and we are really not in the habit to expect two people to get through the door at the same time. Tight aisles (at the fewest pinchpoints) should be a minimum of 30". Aisles where two operating/switching locations are back to back together with through line traffic the aisles should be 42 to 48".

Regarding the working on something, when building layouts either in the shop or working on location at a client's we always have two microwave carts that we use as tool trolleys, complete with attached powerbar, mini vice etc. etc. I'd sure hate if those trolleys wouldn't fit through the aisles.

I haven't mentioned the accessability of certain elements, yet. That justifies another "marked-up" copy of the plan.

PS I work on a substantial Win7 64bit Professional machine, 8G Ram and a fast video card and ..... this plan sure slows down the AnyRail zoom feature in a big way.  :o :o ???

And here a few of the points which pose certain questions regarding the reach and/or the operating modus in the huge yards and service facilities.
The amount of space available in this case should preclude any hidden yards i.e. any staging yards could easily be out in the open; fully scenicked, if necessary as holding yards prior to the marshalling yards.

Yes, your pinch points are duly noted. They will preclude two people being in the same place at the same time, right? :) That will pose interesting situations, right? And it will cause people to think about 'cornfield meets' for personnel almost as much as they consider them for trains (I hope).

Now on to staging. There are lots of commodities that just can't be produced in a 40x60 layout. Even with condensing scenes. I have done my very best to minimize the whole thing by avoiding helices and confining the one staging yard to a lower level reached by long ramps. I think the final grade should be something like 1/2%-3/4%. Maybe less. I think that should be acceptable for any train. The below-table staging won't be anything but a multi-track loop that connects East to West. Strictly for train storage and un-photogenic as heck.

Yep, there are places that really truly NEED to be occupied by yardmaster/dispatcher types at all times, so duckunders should be allowed, especially since one can pick up thick plush carpet scraps for a few bucks. They make useful accessories for duckunder-kneelunders. There may be one or two spots where getting one person through is a tight squeeze, but those can be dealt with during construction. When I get the list down to that point, I'll use AR to eliminate every possible such spot.

Yes Jeff,  :D :D I think you would benefit from joining a round-robin operating group to acquaint yourself - on different layouts - with where and why people will invariable congregate. It's like the family get-together where everyone gravitates towards the kitchen - coziest place in the house.

Of course I see all of this with scenery in place - even though you haven't detailed it yet -and the fact that operators have to hurry from one aisle to another aisle two over through a maze of different aisles, passing through 8 points that are undersized bottle necks (some severely undersized!) is a very strange concept even on a layout where the trains just merrily rotate, let alone on an operating layout.
The other consideration/hazard with all those pinch points is "FIRE!!". Many years ago one of my friends was participating in an op-session on a large N-scale layout. All of this fine stuff was wired with telephone cable (:D :D :D) and a nice little fire popped up near my friend, luckily they didn't have Rule (whatever) and he doused it with a bottle of beer.

As regards open staging - instead of a lot of hidden track in the netherworld - that makes a lot more sense and if setup correctly a front portion close to the aisle can even be used as a "fiddle" operation.

Last but not least, remember what you told Markyboy the other day:

QuoteYou really don't have the space to do everything in the world.

. Certainly true, even when it is a humongously large Mega space

HJ, I hope that no-one with any brains is going to route power through telephone 22-gauge wire on a layout this size. And operators will gather where they need to be in order to operate what they are there to do. That's why control design on a large layout has to be intentional. There aren't any layouts (successful ones) where an unlimited number of people can congregate without consequence (except maybe the break room). Of course that supposes WIRED throttles.

Anyway, really tight points can be modified once the basic design is finished. Hmm, let us see, I will assume that Jody has an IQ of a watermelon and post BIG RED BOXES that say FIRE EXTINGUISHER HERE :). I sure wish we could win the lottery and install a Halon fire suppression system overhead...

As far as traffic patterns, yes, I could have designed a layout where an engineer could follow his or her train by walking alongside it every inch of the way, but then I'd have had to design it as one giant spiral with 6 foot aisles. However, I don't think that's got any relation to the real world, either 1:1 or as modeled. Do you design layouts like that? Personally, I'm still trying to decide if and where dispatchers will be located (besides inside the 'end loops').

Anyway, the whole design is still in development. That means 'Not Finished'. So we will see if we can make the largest number of people happy. Especially the one who wants to build and run it.

Quote from: Jeff on March 16, 2012, 03:54:12 PM
............

Anyway, the whole design is still in development. That means 'Not Finished'. So we will see if we can make the largest number of people happy. Especially the one who wants to build and run it.

Precisely the reason why I point out the conditions which will hamper operations, derailment rectification, maintenance and people traffic. All matters that impact the long time enjoyment.  :) ;) :)

PS just for info: the best designed layout in the MR Planning 2012 starts on page 50 (the others pale by comparison). It is a 16.5ftx19.5ft N-scale layout modelling the BC Southern Interior. Mark Dance of Vancouver, BC designed and built it. His bio blurb in the mag includes.

QuoteMark has been an N-scale modeler for 36 years. ....
Mark has a degree in mechanical engineering and spent 20 years as a product designer/inventor and manager.

And by golly does it ever show on the design and execution of his layout!

I have a plan that I may throw in the mix. It's all done and scenicked, which helps a bunch.

Quote from: Jeff on March 16, 2012, 10:58:31 PM
I have a plan that I may throw in the mix. It's all done and scenicked, which helps a bunch.

How old is it? :D :D ???

Oh, I think it's a year or so old. It's done on AR, of course. I've been an AnyRailer for about 4 years now, so there are plenty of files to keep track of. As for Jody's Continental Rail, You'vde convinced me to leave some tight spots in. I think that's what model railroading has been missing- engineer traffic jams! :D :P  Speaking of things like that, have you seen the article in MR this month about hooking up a real life Fireman's  setup? If he doesn't keep shoveling coal into the virtual firebox, the train stops from lack of steam! (ROFLMAO)(sorry, no Smiley for that one).

Oh, yes, I have taken out most of the tight spots and places where reach exceeds 3'. Those aren't a problem for me, but not everyone is my size :(.
Fortunately, nickel silver track isn't the constant headache brass rail used to be.

Hi Jeff, it's snowing here (the nerve, in the Lower Mainland!) and I gave the lay-out a longer look. Here is my observation:

1) I support everything HJ said, but double underlined...
2) Mount Access and two other peninsulas. Why? (why have the engineer lose his train?)
3) Too much...!
4) Much too much...!
5) definitely much too much...!
6) Just because you can is not always a good reason for doing it...
7) All aisles MUST be at least 48" wide if not wider...there should be a LARGE open area somewhere in the middle of the room.. (for operators, visitors and construction/maintenance). The aisles alone are a major stumbling block even during construction AND the room is/looks completely over-crowded. I am claustrophobic and would never enter that place...

Besides those design points, where is this RR supposed to exist on a map?

I can see this as a fun-exercise with AnyRail, but as a model RR I think it won't fly... and no I am not really a "negative" guy, just one who has learned his lessons in life in general and in model RR in particular.... grandiosity maybe works if your name is Ramses Alexander Augustus Napoleon Charles de Magne. My name is shorter, thus I have become a "purist-minimalist"  ;)

I think what is lacking here are realistic objectives by the owner about what is do-able and even more important maintain-able as a private hobby.... If he goes commercial, well that would be another thing. However, you would NEVER get this lay-out by any fire-marshal or any insurance company...

But then I am in HO and what do I know.... :-X

True, in part, though I have done a lot of work amongst the intricacies of 3-foot and smaller aisles, walkways, and crawlways. Perhaps it lessened my fear of such things. Let's see... Yes, it's a lot, but the person who wants to build it wants a LOT of things. He may not get them all, but I'm devoting some time to seeing if I can't give him most of them. This, by the way, is a freelance road, loosly based on a major freight hauler routing across the US. The layout isn't meant to model ALL that distance. Even I can't give him 3,000 miles of railroad in 40x60 feet. There is staging to the east and the west allowing for traffic coming from industries there just isn't room for. Since there will be a minimum gap of about 3 years before he begins construction, I told him there was plenty of time for kicking around alternatives and to change anything that needs changing. He seems comfortable with the concepts I've shown him, but I may throw it out and start over. One thing I don't see happening is a large blank space in the middle of the room. I don't think he'd appreciate that, from what he has said. I'm hoping that by the time we're settled on the plan and start looking at building, he'll have rounded up a dozen or so friends that are as passionate about model railroading as he is.

Hey, maybe by that time he'll decide to model a subway map of New York City or Boston...

Oh, and KaiL, point #2: The layout is designed for engineers (DCC) to hand trains off to the next crew. Engineers won't move much and dispatchers even less. Not to mention that he wants to add in computer control. I am NOT going to get into THAT pail of worms. How he intends to handle helper service I have no idea.

Quote from: Jeff on March 18, 2012, 01:26:59 AM
.............
Oh, and KaiL, point #2: The layout is designed for engineers (DCC) to hand trains off to the next crew. Engineers won't move much and dispatchers even less. Not to mention that he wants to add in computer control. I am NOT going to get into THAT pail of worms. How he intends to handle helper service I have no idea.

Oh dear! We're back to the 60s, prior to Walk-Around control!  ::) ::)  How about adding an elevated command center from which the engineers run the trains?

Handing off control - on the fly I suppose - will be an interesting operation in DCC.  :o  ::) I can hardly wait to find out which system will handle this.  :)  ;) Too bad you N-scale guys don't run with "live" loads of coal, that would be a sight!

On the fly? No, I expect them to stop the train before switching crews. We're modeling real railroads, right? :) On the other hand, if Jody gets his wish for 16 foot roof, I suppose there would be room for an engineers' platform...

And you've spent all this time complaining about my design, when yours had (let me count) > 7 < peninsulas, pinch points measured in inches, and aisles down to 18"! I suggest all of you look back at page 1 of this topic and reflect on HJ's plan.

Quote from: Jeff on March 18, 2012, 02:26:22 PM
On the fly? No, I expect them to stop the train before switching crews. We're modeling real railroads, right? :) On the other hand, if Jody gets his wish for 16 foot roof, I suppose there would be room for an engineers' platform...

Hmmmmm, as you know I spend quite a bit of time railfanning - with videos to show for it - and hang around the crew change points. That's where one gets to talk to crews coming off or getting on their trains and finds out what the line-ups are for the day, if things are rolling or a bit messy.
And all that makes me still wonder where the crew change points along the quad-main are/will/should be; crew change points that will avoid the mad scramble to get from one aisle to another one, eight bottle necks down the track.

Talk about crew changes out in the middle of nowhere, yes they happen, on our regional railway when the crew runs down the clock because of 15mph slow order for most of the way. On the CPR at some odd places; border of service area between Alberta and BC Interior or when a certain yard has too many trains lined-up and they extend the yard limit some 12 miles East. There are a few more of the unique ones that I know about; lots of trips for the shuttle bus drivers.
I guess you could add a shuttle service, too.  ;D ;D

For that reality check I added a figure to the layout, based on my width in the same position, BTW I'm only 5ft 8.5" tall you can enlarge the figure to your own size and see how it won't fit through the aisles.

Now I'm off XC skiing to keep my size to reasonable dimensions.  :P :P

I added a few of the "real size" people in some of the tighter locations. Illustrates the problems quite nicely! ;) Yep it is a problem, you just can't shrink those real world people, last I heard the trend goes the other way, bigger and bigger.  :o :o ;)

On the other hand, if Jody gets his wish for 16 foot roof, I suppose there would be room for an engineers' platform...

I forgot that item. Why 16 feet? That is two floors. Why not develop a plan that uses hight? I have seen the Miniatur Wunderland in Hamburg, Germany (twice), they have a Swiss area extending over two floors.... Then you would get more room in the rest of the room.. There is also a John Armstrong design of a RR extending over two floors.... (I forgot which and where)

Never mind an engineers platform that would REALLY be dating it...

@HJ- Your concerns are based on old info. When I get the eraser marks sanded off the drawing I'll post the newest. I''m also working on version 2.0, which reworks things quite a bit. Clear the decks because I'm sure it will give you an entirely new load of things to complain about.

@KaiL- I didn't pick the 16 feet, you'll have to direct questions on that matter to Jody. It's his building and layout, in the end. On the other hand, I have spent many years working in all kinds of buildings and unless you have a couple of 5 ton air conditioning units, extra height is APPRECIATED come hot weather. Ditto when it comes to distributing the heat generated by a dozen or so people and power tools.

"lots of trips for the shuttle bus drivers.
I guess you could add a shuttle service, too."

Ahem. Sounds like normal daily orders around this area. Most of the mainline runs under 40mph and I'm sure that while whizzing along at 20mph, they will stop for cars, stray cows, railfans (usually), and anything else that seems to warrant it. Fortunately, it doesn't take long to start or stop 3-8 cars and a (actually fairly decent) GP-30. When there's a crew change (I guess) that they will stop where there's a crossing at grade. Our local idea of a railroad includes some .... unique.... things that I would be afraid to model for fear that everyone would laugh first and ask later. There's one set of sidings that come off the main near an industrial plant and at that point the main is up maybe 12 or 15 feet on an embankment. It takes about 300 feet of horizontal travel to get down to ground level and spread out in 3 directions. Lord only knows what the stated gradient is on that.

Quote from: Jeff on March 19, 2012, 02:18:12 PM
@HJ- Your concerns are based on old info. When I get the eraser marks sanded off the drawing I'll post the newest. I''m also working on version 2.0, which reworks things quite a bit. Clear the decks because I'm sure it will give you an entirely new load of things to complain about.

............

Looking forward to the newest! Mostly I critique items that are obviously not going to work very well e.g. matters that impinge on the long term enjoyment (too much maintenance, not enough people room etc. etc.). And all those can only be based on what you have so far published.  :) ;) :D

38 years ago, when I was service manager at one of the machine tool importers, I "earned" the nickname "Mr. No way!", because I shot down so many impractical suggestions and hare-brained ideas right there in the conference room. Always with very clearly stated technical reasons. 

"too much maintenance"

Fortunately, the real owner of the railroad will be dealing with day to day maintenance. I have to assume that he knows that it will be something requiring help and conscious thought about what he's doing when he intends to deal with a 40x60 foot N scale road. As I said, thank Murphy that today's track is nickel silver and not brass. Anyway, he'll need the manpower and a small fleet of track cleaning cars to keep things going right. Speaking from experience, a once-over cleaning is fine as long as it is done on a regular basis(!).

Still, there is one area where you won't be happy and that's just the way it is: The end loops and other areas needing duckunder access. There just isn't any sane way to turn an entire railroad's direction and keeping the turns as wide a radius as possible without using large loops. It's also a pain in the corners of the room, but again, there aren't a lot of ways around it.

Since we're now talking free-flow benchwork - this actually started out with segmental, uniform moduls - I have a few other ideas, started on my second plan.
I'll still leave the Entry Way with those walls and the double doors swinging out (fire regulations). And the rest will be distinct walk-along with the train from the division and crew change points.  ;)  :) No retro for me other than the theme of the layout.

PS Examples of yard ladders attached. As easy as 1-2-3; position one turnout, select the leg the ladder starts from, input the three parameters (number of tracks, center distance, length of tracks).

"(fire regulations)"

??? I hope you're aware that fire regulations vary from spot to spot (sometimes from one block to the next or from one spot to another 50 feet away). There are national codes, but those certainly vary all over the map (literally and figuratively).

Jeff,

True!

But there are common sense fire regulations that one imposes on oneself. They are for those locations where the fire regulations are kind of lax.

Yes, if it were me, I'd probably position 'fire exits' at places around the walls and under the benchwork, as well as placing the proper ABC rated fire extinguishers here and there. Another issue that Jody will have to handle himself is HVAC for the building. Good insulation makes me feel warm all over :)

BTW cost estimates per square foot of N-scale layout are approx. US$ 90 - 135 ...... if you do all the work yourself.         Not exactly chicken feed.

Jeff,
    is that benchwork theru scenery and loc's & rolling stock?

Paul

Yes Paul,

QuoteBTW cost estimates per square foot of N-scale layout are approx. US$ 90 - 135 ...... if you do all the work yourself.  :o  :o :o       Not exactly chicken feed.

OTOH if you don't have to finance or build it yourself ... no problem whatsoever!

Way back on Page 3 of this thread I mentioned those figures. That is just bare-bones i.e. the benchwork, the track, basic electrics and rudimentary scenery. That is for average density, for high density like huge yards in urban settings the cost climbs

Add all the rolling stock, structures, vehicles, fancier electrics and/or electronics, detail parts til the cows come home and and and. IOW all that goes with a nice layout.

I asked Jeff once if he priced just the section on the quad-main where trains can go from the inner most track to the outer most and every track in between as well as going the opposite way. A series of crossovers with 16 turnouts, at least 8 switch motors, at least 2 quad-accessory decoders. The signals or Dwarf signals to indicate route alignments in both travel directions and and and .....

In short ... if you want to go BIG TIME it will require BIG money. ;)  :)

Very true. If it were MY layout, I'd want it all at once and that would take big money. Even with the 'condensed' 4-track double crossovers possible using the Peco double crossover as the core. Version 2.0 will still have at least two high-density areas, that's just not something that can change unless I change the whole character of the railroad. That's not going to happen. Jody wants to do heavy-duty railroading and you don't do that without high density. If I had another 20x30 feet or so I'd put in three big cities and give him overhead wire service between two of them. As it is, I'm starting to lean sort of towards the old Milwaukee or CB&Q routes rather than the (done to pieces) desert right of way. Once Jody has a plan and a concept he really is in love with (such a layout demands being in love with it!), then we'll get into scenery and signals and all the fun little details.

Looking forward to additional, actual plans.  :)

I'm still placing benchwork for my ver2 to get the most linear distance and aisles that are at a minimum 3ft wide, up to 8ft where there is heavy people traffic, open staging, walk along with the train for the complete layout and and and. But it will be just a double track main designed for heavy traffic and a branch or two with single track traffic pattern.  ;) :)

Cheers

HJ

"Inspired by the real world"

Here we go with the first focal point "Open Staging West". Following mapping convention; facing the layout one is looking North.

Some questions: Do you feel that a beautifully round staging area looks better/more realistic than the equivalent in freeform? If so, why? Next, do you think that your high-density area will be inherently cheaper than my design, since you continue to push the cost issue? If so, why? Keep in mind that my design includes things like a large industry, passenger car storage and service, and engine service facilities.

I'm always open to discussion and changing my mind if there are good reasons to do so.

It is staging, it serves the function, since it is circular it is very easy to build (take a trammel, mark the center lines, proceed), more or less equal length of staging tracks (the 6 outer ones), long enough to stack two trains if desired.

You'll have to wait a little before you can count the turnouts required for a yard that serves several purposes i.e. a) it is a large yard (that's the visual impression) b) at the same time it serves as staging (that's the function) and c) it is also a division/crew change point (that's the operational aspect).

Now you just have to wait and see what follows to the East of Staging West and whatelse will be part of Staging West.

Yes, I know it's super-easy to build, keeping it so nice and symmetrical... Yet I see you avoiding my questions. I guess I'll wait and see what happens to the east of there. Maybe the answers will be obvious.

Staging has first of all to be functional and since "we're OK with duckunders" making it compact in a circle - that will be operated from the inside - seems logical to me. Can all be nicely ballsted, the details added etc. etc. Basically you get two birds with the same stone in a compact arragement. Not only that, I'll be able to use the same design on the East end of the layout. I'll calculate the expense as soon as I have all of the components in place - I guess you'll do the same for your yard?  ??? - based on MSRP.

As far as operations go, the road crew brings the train into the yard and then gets picked up by the shuttle. The hostler brings the power to the service facility; he also puts power on the outgoing trains if the road crew is "delayed". The road crew takes the trains from the yard.

No, I won't worry about the cost in this special case. Since the layout is scheduled to be built in stages over the course of years, costing it in today's dollars makes little sense. As for the rest, I did something similar, but included industries and such in the same looped area to do other things: be useful by generating more traffic locally to send out and to give the 'guy inside the bubble' something to do while waiting for the long-distance trains to come in. That seemed like a good idea. The hidden staging is simply there to do what staging always does: extend the model railroad beyond the confines of the room.

"The boy in the bubble" aka hostler will be plenty busy. Between the roundhouse, the Diesel Shop - the engines need to be washed first to get the gunk off the chassis - refuelling the engines and having them ready to rock'n roll will be a very nifty job.

Now I just need to place the turnouts and the first "job" is done.

Yep. Note that in my concept, there would be more than one person in the Hole. I figure that taking care of rolling stock matters may take up a bunch of his time. The other person(s) would then take care of switching industries and breaking down/building up trains. There really will be plenty to do on the layout.

And here is the trackage for "Honeydale" - in the land of Milk and Honey way out West some place.

Post Office - the sorting/distribution center for the whole region. Perfect excuse to run the Mail/Express trains.
Pullman - to service whatever runs in the long distance trains.
Structural Steel Fabricator - steady supply of materials in and finished products out for all those SkyScrapers that are being built. In addition they also build tanks. Gon and flats in and out, the loads stored right on location below the track level. To large traveling crane to load and unload. For those who haven't been to a structural plant, raw steel comes in, pre-primed product goes out.

Most of the city scape will be on the backdrop, saves time and money. When done right - with photo murals - it looks very good.

Nope, no .any file at this point.

BTW AnyRail locked up on me when I was placing turnouts in 1:1 zoom, ah well there is no such as perfection.

Doing a 180º the double track line gets to Acmeville - four different industries plus the team track/loading ramp. Enough to keep the wayfreight (local) busy for quite some time, going either East or West. Keeping out of the way of fast freights  and the passenger traffic - trans-con or local - will be quite the job.

And that is it for today.  ;)  :D

And after another 180º sweep the line travels along the shore of Lake Bluewater. Steadily gaining altitude.

And at the Northend of Lake Bluewater is .... Bluewater. The junction with the Uppsala Branch, which heads South and steeply up the hillside along Lake Bluewater.

Just enough track to have fluent interchange of freight and passengers to the branch line, engine service area, caboose track, a freight shed on the west side. Drill tracks on both ends to keep the mainline open.

Bluewater is a tourist and railfan destination, plenty of room to add the suitable structures.

Next will be Central City. Yep, this is a A-B-C scheme ...

Along the way to Central City the line passes by a large aggregate outfit, owned by the railway company. That's where they get the high quality ballast and stone blocks for special projects. The traffic is substantial as one can tell by the crossovers on both ends.

Hans Joerg, what are you building? What scale? Or is this an "improvement" on Jeff's lay-out?

I have just watched your video Out and About, Fraser Canyon.... I drove that stretch Hope - Boston Bar over 2,500 times in the last 20 years... I can do this now with closed eyes...

Kai,

This is ver2 of what I would put in that room if I were modeling NorthAmerican in N scale. I "waste" a lot of space on aisles in order to have room for the operators in the strategic locations where people will congregate -  a result of many years participating in operating sessions on many different layouts. ;) That extra space is very handy during construction, too.
I like the linear design concept where the engineer/conductor walks along with the train, doing what they do on the 1:1 RRs. Designing in a linear fashion - best done in a larger room - allows for several 90º and 180º changes of directions. Doing that the operator turns as the train does and as a result only looks at the section of the layout through which the train travels. The standard convention is "Looking North when facing the layout", easy to remember what is East or West - unless one has a sense of direction like an egg beater. Amount of track is governed by the function at the location, railroads don't build more than they need at any location for that function. As a matter of fact they have a tendency to remove track that isn't essential to operations. IOW any excess will still require maintenance - money spent with no return.
As far as scenery goes ... less depth except what is captured on the backdrop. Scenic deviders - mountain ridges, rivers, tunnels etc. - to coincide with some of the many changes of direction. A typical example of that would be the change that happens at Lytton between the Fraser and the Thompson Canyons. Very abrupt! Of course there are examples of that all over the world. This scheme will make the layout look much bigger than it actually is.
As far as operations are concerned, the biggest drawback of large to very large layouts - unless they are able to run in completely automatic mode - is the number of people required to bring the layout "to life". Anyone who has or had an operating layout of some size knows that competent engineers/conductors don't grow on trees or pop out of the ground.  ;)  :) It's that "been there, done that, have a bit less hair""  feeling I get when looking at layout plans. Not even talking about time and money.  :o  ;) ;D

Cheers

HJ

"Inspired by the real world"

"Not even talking about time and money"

Exactly. That is the last thing we need to discuss, per the owner's 'Givens & Druthers'.

In that respect I always take the global view when it comes to layout design, since all of "those minor details" are all part of the equation. Like the invisible elephant in the room.  :D :D

And to give some idea where I'm headed with this version: I added some of the people figures, the dispatchers console and the contour of the backdrop.

A lot more to come.

Why no .any file? I have to slim down the figure files first, neglected to do that when I put them together. And while I'm at it I'll also do something about the white rectangles around the figures.  ;) ;)

Central City - on the high plains - has a few extra wrinkles since it is the junction to the single track mainline heading Northeast. Sorting the eastbound freights should provide a lot of fun. Just like sorting the consists that come off the Northeast line, not a lot of room but enough to do the job. BTW for those who haven't noticed yet; railroads would rather see the cars standing at the delivery or pick-up points (the customers) instead of their yards. Apparently it's something about the money. ;) :o

Central City's industries will be to the East of the station, with prevailing West and Northwest winds that keeps the smells drifting East.

Next step: Central City Industrial.

All of it right close to the aisle to make switchin a lot easier and since there's a variety of different "customers" it will be relatively short locals on alternating days - one day the grain silos, the nexy day the rest. Unless there is some urgent "stuff" in which case the engineer conductor better be on the ball, since running around the train gets "interesting" when cars are being loaded at the grain silos.

And two more industries North of the double track main. That local turn would be a lot of fun. ;D ;D

Hans Joerg,

I have found .........., a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. (Acts 13:22)

At first I thought this would be something Rhaetisch, but this is even better. I hope Jeff and his patron have a serious look at what you have produced.

This layout I can see being build and operated in a prototypical fashion. Sorry Jeff, but my vote goes to HJ.... because "been there, done that" and now I am the wiser for it...hahaha 8)

Thanks Kai,

I guess I can fiddle and diddle with a few things along the double track main, but for now the concept is done. From open staging to open staging with plenty of entertainment and scenery along the way.

Enough track for the concept to work, the only bottlenecks at those locations where switching happens on either side of the main. Good timing and a dispatcher who is on the ball will make that a "piece of cake". Longish unit trains are designated as  "hot shots" and keep rolling from one end to the other. Mixed manifest trains drop blocks of cars along the way e.g. Honeydale, Bluewater and Central City, the wayfreights (local turns) take care of the rest.

That leaves the Uppsala Branch and the Northeast Main.  ;)  :) Something to do next week.

HJ,

This is really an interesting layout concept. I see a branchline that includes some of the new 'Anti-Gravity Track' and a peninsula devoted to... Nothing? Perhaps you're not really done with the layout...

If so, then maybe you could actually draw a new northern end for the loop on the south end of the layout. I see a fairly tight curve with no reason shown. I'm sure that operation would be enhanced by a wider curve.

Jeff,

???  ???  ??? say whut?

QuoteThat leaves the Uppsala Branch and the Northeast Main.  ;)  :) Something to do next week.

In addition to all the exact elevations (lowest point is 1270mm/50" above floor) , a bunch of bridges, culverts, more water, tunnels, snow sheds, retaining walls, structures etc. etc.

BTW that anti-gravity track; plenty of examples for that on branch lines on either side of the 49th.

But today will be another glorious, sunny day on the CrossCountry ski tracks.  8) 8)

This here is the Uppsala Branch, it starts at Bluewater and heads West climbing way above the lake. On that long climb there is one passing siding at Grizzly Hill. All downhill freights have to stop, let the brakes cool and recharge the air to full pressure.  ;) The passenger service could be in the form of RDC sets (Budd Cars).

Uppsala (1750mm) is stacked above West Staging (1280mm) and the same crews that work West Staging will also work Uppsala, a four track yard in the big return loop.
The branch continues farther up the hill - a  one-turn giant helix to gain the height to clear the entrance door (2075mm) - and will eventually end at the junction with the NorthEast mainline. The yard at Uppsala is also open staging, but scenery is optional.

Open staging that is being manned can very easily be transformed into a "fiddle" situation with all the supposed industries along the branch having different cars picked up and delivered. Since both West and East Staging use the open concept, this could provide a huge amount of variety. In short a lot more to do than run trains in very big circles, with the same consists returning again and again.  ;) :)

And then it is up the hill on that NorthEast mainline. That Peninsula that looked sort of lost is actually the transition from the lower level to the upper level.
Since the double track main disappears into a tunnel on the lower level to reappear at Downsview - which is last stop before Staging East - while the NorthEast main climbs the hill the scenery transitions very smoothly to the separate upper level. Two passing sidings (Hillside and Slide Siding) between Central City and Upon Hill. Upon Hill has two large industries, a lumber mill and a plywood plant.

Next and last stop along the line will be NorthEast staging which is also the junction to the Uppsala branch.

I got rid of the people standing around - they will be back later - and that shrinks the Any file quite a bit.  ;D ;D

This should be it as far as the track goes. Yes Staging NorthEast sits above Staging East. The footprint remains the same the track config between all four staging areas are very similar for some (too me) logical reasons:
a) much easier to build (from benchwork to wiring)
b) much easier on the crews who work staging. Once they know how to operate Staging West - the most complex - the other three are a piece of cake.
c) the scenery in each can be as detailed as required/desired.
d) the inner most tracks are always the potential "fiddle" tracks.

Other than the Uppsala branch the grades ar nice and easy.
Using more or less symmetrical elements speeds construction, most of the benchwork elements could be pre-fabed in the shop and then moved. The less mess in the layout room the better.

When I get "a-round-to-it" I'll add "more stuff" that goes with an operating layout.  Any of the operating layouts that I know of, or got to operate on, have a a definite scheme that goes with the theme. And all of them boil down to "there is a reason why this equipment is moving".

Jody,
I felt like I should let you know where things are headed. I was all set to finish off version 1, but it really is almost done, so I decided to let it 'ferment' a while. I have version 2 well underway, so I thought I would put it up and let HJ take pot-shots at it while I finish it off and get on to version 3. Most of this activity is meant to find what I feel is the 'best' benchwork plan for this big a space, given the parameters and future plans (i.e. especially the second layer). Anything going in the basement will need to be very simple so that it can be ripped up and replaced by operating space instead of just some turn-around loops. As it develops, this version features open staging. Once v5 springs to life, I will post a more complete picture. I've been doing the heavy lifting with that, so that I can chase the bugs out of the closet.

I just found this thread and thought I'd try my hand and it....

In additional to the givens and druthers, a couple of operational concepts to help with where I'm going:

• layout is point-to-point, but with hidden (no fiddling) staging and return loops
• layout is walkaround - no duckunders except when needed for emergencies on hidden track
• maximum reach is 24", scenes in corners may be deeper, but track is not
• layout abutting walls is 24" deep, except in port, where access will be available between piers jutting into aisle (aisle will be shifted left to maintain minimum aisle width, shortening horizontal width of peninsula spiral)
• layout not abutting the walls is double sided peninsula with view block.  Average (initial planning) depth is 18", but will be more when needed or less when helpful (remember that, in mountainous scenery, depth of scenery affects the height of scenery).
• reference height is set to zero.  This is the visible part of the layout along the top, right and bottom walls.  all other heights will be vertical distance from that
• aisles will be 48" wide - minimum acceptable with operations on both sides.
• while I believe the layout is far, for too large for anything but a sizeable club to maintain, I understand it's one man's dream and has to run with minimal hands.  Therefore, the schema should be kept relatively simple, with the goal of providing both a great viewing experience and also allow for operations worthy of the layout, when/if sufficient hands are available for an operating session.  Therefore, the layout/operating scheme is intended to be within the scope/abilities of existing computer-controlled software, such as jmri's autodispatcher in conjunction with automated block detection and control systems

A tour of the layout
(subject to change at the whim of the designer or on the suggestions of anyone who has suggestions)....

While layout is freelance, it helps to think of the visible portion with the west to the right of the operator (I hate that - much prefer more traditional map view where *East* is to the right, but it just helps with the concept).

There will be fuller descriptions of the various elements as they're completed.

The layout starts in the upper left, with hidden tracks tracks (from a hidden staging yard) from the east emerging from under tall buildings of the Chicago skyline, passing  the Amtrak engine and passenger prep and maintenance facilities and entering Union Station. The Union Station element is designed to handle both Amtrak and commuter service, although commuter service is limited to west bound traffic.  The final component of the element is the commuter service yards to the west of the station this is push/pull service, so there is no turning capability.

After passing the Metra yards, the train passes through an urban industrustrial area containing factories, freight storage and transfer facilities, and a modest intermodal yard.

Next comes La Bella Junction (don't look for that one on any map), where freight traffic from the west is routed around the city and and half the commuter traffic traffic heads southwesterly (both to another hidden staging yard - the primary one at this end of the layout).

Following the main on the layout (in a clockwise direction - always in a clockwise direction), next comes the port district.  Actually, this is modelled more on an international port than anything near Chicago, handling coal and grain from the west and trans-shipping both inbound and outbound general freight, containers, autos and anything else anyone wants to add....

Just beyond the port, in the bottom right corner is a major industry (steel? oil refinery? something big and dirty) modelled in relief and on the back-up.

Next, covering the longest wall of the layout room, is the much desired mega-freight yard, with engine facilities, arrival, departure and classification yards in both directions and the primary engine facility for freight service..

West of the yard, as we reach the right side of the room, is another large industry, also modelled in relief and on the backdrop.

By now, we've moved out of the city and primary industrial area and reach the end of the line for remaining commuter service, with some light industry and  allowing us to reduce the main to two tracks.  The town can be bracketed by two more, larger industries that are generally "cleaner" but still give a reason for a large town to be located here.

The land becomes more rural as we proceed, passing grainaries and another small town, before reaching the foothills (of the Rockies, of course) and our helper district.

From here, the main climbs the hills twisting past mines as it ascends one side of a canyon (the aisle), around high point curve and continuing up the other side of the Canyon to the surprisingly named "Summit" and the end of the helper district.  It's possible that a lumber branch that's been gradually descending from an even higher level can join the main here and interchange cars or even have operating rights over our trackage and headed for a paper mill we passed earlier.

There's one  smallish city beyond here - only the third stop for the intercity passenger traffic, but a of place for two sections of the train to join heading eastward or break up heading west (as wkith the Empire Builder at Spokane) before plunging into (Cascade/Sierra Nevada/Unaimum) mountains, and the staging yard beyond the other end of the visible layout.

Anyway, that's the goal for where the (very) preliminary layout below is heading.....

PS: You really don't want to see my two-tiered version, if I ever get around to that one - mushroomed or not, even..... :) )

Mike, interesting stuff. Take a close look at Jody's Givens and Druthers on page one of this thread, then follow HJ's link to the thread on the Trainboard. It should give you all you ever need to know. Notice I didn't say that it would answer all your questions. That's because there has to be room for the actual designer to add their elements to it. But, with all that room, there's plenty left for that.

Thanks, I already had.

The only one I'm deliberately not following is the track brand.  The most important reason is that I find the Peco turnouts far less troublesome than the Atlas ones and that's going to be critical when it comes to operating and maintaining this behemouth.  The other reason is the better selection of track  and closer track centers (1 3/64" instead of 1 1/4") for complex areas like Union Terminal and even just running through the city areas, where real estate in 1:1 scale is expensive).  The final (and admittedly selfish) reason is there are elements I've designed previously for my layout and just adapted for this one (like Union Station) and I'm more comfortable using it.

I don't expect anyone (including Jody) to follow these plans precisely at any rate.  I know what Byron Henderson charged me for a single, 20' long design element and this one would cost Jody his first five years' budget (whatever that is), and then some, for just the plan if I did (and I'm an amateur).  If there are pieces he likes, great.  He's welcome to use them (as is anyone else) for free.  The only price is that I got to pick the brand of track so I can use (parts of) the plan, as well.... :)

Ok. There IS a good reason to use the Atlas track, as you know- their system has #10 turnouts. That certainly doesn't mean you can't mix and match on track. I use a fair amount of Peco track in my design, as well. Peco has #8 turnouts, curved turnouts of a reasonable radius, and things like a double-crossover and three-way. I'm sure there are appearance differences, but once ballasted and weathered, those would be small. As for track centers, my experience says that less than 1.25" will keep you and your 1:1 fingers from being able to pick up a derailed car from the middle of a yard or anywhere else there are more than one track next to another.

As for reusing elements, everybody does it. Or should! That's one of the nicest parts of AR. Creating your own .any file to hold track arrangements in a sort of library really saves time.

Technically, the only turnouts Peco has are #6 (10 degree frogs).  For the varying lengths ("short", "medium" and "long") what varies is the radius of the closure rail on the diverging route.  Short turnouts use a 12" radius, medium turnouts use an 18" radius and long turnouts use a 36" radius.  (The crossover is actually the equivalent of four medium turnouts - 18" radius in each turnout.)

As for rerailing a derailed car, I agree completely.  No 1:1 fingers are going to rerail a car when there are strings of cars on adjacent tracks - so, in those cases when that happens to me (when I'm uncoupling with a pick),  after I get done cursing I push the cars on an adjacent track a bit to the left or right.  Let's face it, giant 7 foot (160:1 scale) wide fingers don't reach down from the sky to rerail cars in the prototype, either.  And, while I don't know for certain (I can't find a set of safety regs on rerailing),  when a 1:1 scale car goes off the tracks in a yard with tight spacing, I'd think they clear the adjacent tracks so the workmen have a safe place and enough space to work.  If that's so, I'm just following the prototype.  And, if it isn't so I don't want to know....:)

Besides, 16.7' center line spacing between tracks (which is what 1 1/4" inch is, in N scale) just looks "wrong" to me.  I guess we each have our own set of ideas about what constitutes a correctable eyesore.

One last (side) note: The actual yard on my operating layout tends to have ample open track.  While that's good design (planning on maximum actual usage of 50% of capacity), I can't claim I did it because of design guidelines.  I did it because I've never found 5 3/8" inches of straight track where I couldn't find an excuse to place "just one more" turnout. Just look at what little there is of trackage on the preliminary plan.  The commissary/ready tracks (to the right of the turntable at the top left) originally had 9 tracks and a thoroughfare track - because they fit.  Then I looked at what would be a reasonable list of trains originating here and came up with a total of 5 trains.  (There are passing-thru trains and trains with sections joining and splitting, but they wouldn't, logically, have any storage requirements at this location).  It hurt my pride, but I cut it down to the current 6 commissary/ready tracks.  No promises I won't succumb to temptation  as the plan develops, though. (While Amtrak tends to run its trains as unit trains, I'll use the extra space to store spare cars for peak loads and replacements when a car is pulled for repairs - not that Amtrak has an abundance of spares.... :( )

what is the suggested distance between parallel track, especially in yards/staging?
thanks much!
respectfully
Gary L Lake Dillensnyder

Gary:

NMRA suggested minimum spacing for handling cars (uncoupling yards, etc.) is 1 3/16" (15'10" in 1:1 scale) for parallel tracks in N Scale.  The minimum for running is 1 1/32" (13'9").

They have a host of standards and recommended practices covering all sorts of distances and clearances in all scales at http://nmra.org/standards/sandrp/consist.html.

Sometimes you need to grit your teeth and design for reliable and sustainable operations and let that be your guide. I'll stick to 1.25" and perhaps a little wiggle room on curves.

thanks
i know about the NRMA standards
and i know that Atlas provides for 1.25
and Kato provides for 1.325

it was mentioned that it is not easy on the eyes or the fingers.

thus my question was (not according to standards, but) what are you using instead of these?

if not 1.25 because it does not look prototypical, what does look prototypical and provide sufficient finger room for rerailing?

thanks!

respectfully,
Gary

Quote from: glakedylan on May 21, 2012, 11:15:08 PM
thanks
i know about the NRMA standards
and i know that Atlas provides for 1.25
and Kato provides for 1.325

it was mentioned that it is not easy on the eyes or the fingers.

thus my question was (not according to standards, but) what are you using instead of these?

if not 1.25 because it does not look prototypical, what does look prototypical and provide sufficient finger room for rerailing?

Clearly, I can't answer that question as I've already noted that, for me, the two goals are mutually exclusive.  I've already mentioned what I use*.  I prefer (and suggest) the one that easier on *my* eyes (where appearance counts), exceeds the the NMRA minimum and happens to be the default separation used by manufacturer missing from your list:

     Peco  1.046875"  (1 3/64"), or 13' 11.5" in 1:1 scale

---

* The one exception (besides curves) is on parallel ladder tracks where two trains may be operating side by side (e.g. the station platform ladder) I use 1.25" to avoid the possibility that they will sideswipe each other transitioning from the platform tracks to the ladder.

This discussion is something of a moot point, since your track system dictates the track spacing to a large extent. Certainly in the case of ladder tracks in a yard and any connections made at crossovers, etc. I've built a bunch of yards using Atlas c80 "#4" (actually #4.5) and the look when populated is acceptable to me.

Quote from: Mike from CT on May 19, 2012, 11:04:22 PM
I just found this thread and thought I'd try my hand and it....

...................................

PS: You really don't want to see my two-tiered version, if I ever get around to that one - mushroomed or not, even..... :) )

;) :) :D ;D

Very good Mike!

But you left too much aisle space for the operators.  (http://www.rhb-grischun.ca/F-PIX/TiC.jpg) (http://www.rhb-grischun.ca/F-PIX/TiC.jpg)

BTW even though I do commercial/professional layout planning, I get a great kick out of adding my four cents on this forum. AND yes I wan't to see your multi-tier version.

Quote from: RhB_HJ on May 29, 2012, 05:38:39 PM
But you left too much aisle space for the operators.  (http://www.rhb-grischun.ca/F-PIX/TiC.jpg) (http://www.rhb-grischun.ca/F-PIX/TiC.jpg)

It's (yet another) of my character flaws.  I get jealous of the trains when they have plenty of room to pass and I don't... ;)

Ah, but what an incentive to get yourself trim and fit!

Quote from: Jeff on May 30, 2012, 03:13:18 PM
Ah, but what an incentive to get yourself trim and fit!

I prefer thinking of it as it's less effort to widen the aisles than it is to narrow my girth.... :)

Quote from: Mike from CT on May 30, 2012, 05:36:18 PM

Quote from: Jeff on May 30, 2012, 03:13:18 PM
Ah, but what an incentive to get yourself trim and fit!

I prefer thinking of it as it's less effort to widen the aisles than it is to narrow my girth.... :)

Not only that, it's really hard to get a good operating crew of only slim guys.
At least that's my experience, but then I should have stopped baking cakes and other goodies for the session after operating.  :o  ;)  :)

That's funny. I find that I can gain 5 pounds just by watching shows on the Food Network... :)  Still, that doesn't mean I wouldn't LIKE to watch something like "the Skinny Network".

Quote from: RhB_HJ on May 30, 2012, 05:41:29 PM
Not only that, it's really hard to get a good operating crew of only slim guys.
At least that's my experience, but then I should have stopped baking cakes and other goodies for the session after operating.  :o  ;)  :)

After operating? ? ? ? ?

Maybe that's why the last thing I see of my crews for the night is when they come in the front door and ask "Where's the food?"  Funny, none of them ever asked "Where's the layout?" - or, it seems, found it....

Truth in advertising: I'm a lone wolf operator but now I now why - I get to eat all the goodies.... :)

Well, just in case Jody checks in here, I will say that I have two versions of the large layout pretty much done. What I'm doing now is playing with benchwork shapes. I'm doing my best to discover what is really the best shape and it's not as open and shut as we all thought.

I've started calling this "the layout with the moving goal posts" some time ago.  ;D  ;D  ;D  But since that happens quite often on many layouts - rooms change shape, obstructions appear out of no-where, major "druthers" disappear as if by magic etc etc - I just grin and wish whoever good luck during the building phase.  ;)  ;) That's when the rubber hits the road and the wheels start spinning on the spot - even when there is no snow or ice on the road.  :-X

Quote from: Jeff on May 31, 2012, 01:37:05 PM
Well, just in case Jody checks in here, I will say that I have two versions of the large layout pretty much done. What I'm doing now is playing with benchwork shapes. I'm doing my best to discover what is really the best shape and it's not as open and shut as we all thought.

They'll be fun to see.

I'm playing with Bailey (North Platte NE) Yard.  A reasonably representative replica that really could be used - on a vary large (club) layout.  First try was to fit a very large, totally freelanced yard into the "Platt Flats Yard" are on my master, but that one was visually boring - looked like 50'x2' feet of staging yard, crammed with track.  Current one is not restricted by width (well, 4' max with access from both sides.  Eastbound yards and engine facility operated from one side, westbound from other.   Operation from both sides is going to be critical if we don't want folks tripping over one another....

Trying to mimic the real thing is producing a much more interesting yard - eastbound yards are in-line, while westbound ones are parallel.  Also representing hump yard trees (even if implemented as flat yards) makes them more scenically "attractive" than the typical standard ladder (even compound ladder) used for flat yards.  And folks have built working hump yards in N scale (for example, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8YfSXjH7FA).

Anyway, if I like the results, I may jiggle the yard and my master plan to get them to work together.  Gimme a couple more days and I'll post what I have.

Do you have a link to the Bailey track plan prototype)? It will save me a lot of searching if you do. I have been considering including the full yard (Yes, about 55x6, in Jody's case) running down the center. If he wasn't so set against duckunders, I would have put it in the middle long ago. The way I see it, if you just use the duckunder once per operating session, it really isn't so bad. Once an operator gets assigned to the yard, there's no way he's going to have enough slack time to go wandering through the duckunder every time you turn around. I figure it will take at least 4 people in the center of it at all times in order to keep things moving. Oh, yes, I also figure it will look a lot better as a long donut with operators in the middle than a 4-6 foot wide peninsula.

Model it as a hump yard??? I think they will have their hands full with a flat tree. I don't mind the idea, but I have serious doubts about keeping a couple thousand cars tuned to the point where they will not only roll on command, but roll at approximately the same speed. You can't have them roll too fast or two slow. One fast hit and there will be wheels on the ground.

UP apparently has one on their site - if you're a UP customer with an account.  Trains also seems to have one (http://trn.trains.com/~/link.aspx?_id=1AAADEA8F5BB42CE93D877516113DFBF for a teaser), if you're a subscriber.  I subscribe to MR, but that isn't good enough.... :(

I've been using google maps for the track plan. (Their image is clearer than Bing's.)  Since I'm going for "flavor" over detail, it's doing the job.  Just go to maps.google.com and ask for "North Platte, NE" and it'll be just to the upper left of the town.  It's kinda hard to miss.... :)

Hmmmmm if I recall correctly that track plan was in TRAINS, I'll have a look. ;)

I don't subscribe to anything but the theory of general relativity :D However, I'll take a look through Google. Too bad they don't do a 'Street view' for that yard!

Quote from: Jeff on May 31, 2012, 11:04:22 PM
I don't subscribe to anything but the theory of general relativity :D

Isn't that the theory that says "In general, my relatives are okay but yours are a whole 'nother subject?"  ::)

Seriously, Google is actually pretty good if you're not planning on reproducing a perfect replica.  It raises some questions - like there's a series of refueling racks for unit trains heading east (judging by the positions of the engines on the trains at the rack just north of the two fuel tanks and the fact the tracks merge just east of the racks), but I can't find anything similar for trains heading west. Maybe they just coasted down hill from there to Wyoming?  Or UP decided to cut fuel costs in half by fueling only eastbound trains?

"Isn't that the theory that says "In general, my relatives are okay but yours are a whole 'nother subject?"  ::)"

Ummm, no. It's the one that says 'If you let your relatives tell you what they think of grown men playing with toy trains, you're nuts!'.

I'm thinking that the nearest westbound fueling points to the east of the yard are probably closer than the eastbound ones. Not to mention that empty unit-trains have got to use a lot less fuel westbound than the full eastbound ones. Or maybe the westbound grades are such that it's all downhill and they coast home :).

Way over on the west end, just below the diamond shaped part of the coal empties yard's left-ladder.  Not where I expected it to be at all.....

It's a very interesting yard. Seemingly bits and pieces all over and sub-yards stuck on wherever they felt like it. And an 8 track main(!!!). HJ complains when I put in a 4 track? Hmm.

Anyway, seeing it makes me feel really good about my efforts on the plans. I have most of the features of the real thing, except those two HUGE fuel tanks. I think I prefer to split up the fuel supply into several tanks- makes them easier to fit into the space and will make replacement easier if one of them should fail. You will note a feature that is seldom if ever modeled: the containment dike. The EPA and OSHA mandate that there be a containment dike around every tank capable of holding in the contents of a full tank plus a heavy rain storm. One thing that strikes me is how small the yard is. Yes, small. There are the remains of a truly BIG yard southeast of Albany, NY. It was about 3 times the size of Bailey. Even the current NYC Selden yard southwest of Albany is a pretty large item. Bailey boasts of 300 tracks, but I submit that it really doesn't look like it. Not to say that it isn't a busy place. It's obvious that it handles a lot of freight.
As I said, In my latest plan I've managed to capture the flavor of Bailey, I think. Mine is only about 2 scale miles long or a little more, but it has the same yard trees. I've left in the "old steam-era turntables", since I think that they're still useful things in the diesel age. This being a freelanced railroad, I feel free to keep things around that have since surrendered to the accountants' red ink. As big as the yard is today, you can see places where tracks have been torn up.
My last comment is- wow, they sure have lots of coal unit-trains in the yard! Wonder why they aren't in service?

Quote from: Jeff on June 02, 2012, 03:37:15 PM
................
And an 8 track main(!!!). HJ complains when I put in a 4 track? Hmm.

Perhaps they really need an eight track main to keep the amount of traffic flowing. Hmmmmm ??? ??? That's how the 1:1 guys usually handle it.

Quote from: Jeff
...........
You will note a feature that is seldom if ever modeled: the containment dike. The EPA and OSHA mandate that there be a containment dike around every tank capable of holding in the contents of a full tank plus a heavy rain storm.

European models have been produced with those berms as part of the base for many, many years

Quote from: Jeff
One thing that strikes me is how small the yard is. Yes, small.

Real railroads - I emphasize that almost constantly! - build only as much as they need to do any given job in the most efficient way. Not that this would impress some of the modelling fraternity whose "bigger is always better" layout plans one could easily pick apart by applying the theoretical max traffic flow on any given mainline, along with the size of the hidden staging yards.
Railroads make money when wheels roll and they also make money when their cars are standing at their customers.

@HJ- Take a look at all the published track plans with fuel/oil/chemical tanks and see what percentage have containment dikes. As for what is modeled in Europe... this is NOT a European layout. Just in case you missed that.

Jeff (and anyone else interested):

Rather than hijack Jody's thread, I started a new one re: Bailey Yard (Called "Don't Try This at Home...." http://www.anyrail.com/forum_en/index.php/topic,1476.0.html (http://www.anyrail.com/forum_en/index.php/topic,1476.0.html)) with my progress to date (only east bound and start of engine facility so far).  I'll post my progress there.  You're welcome to add yours.

I'll be going out to theater or I'd have gotten a bit further.

This is version 2. Division point yards are at the ends where traffic turns around to head back to the other end. Note that intertwined with the main (4-track) railroad are actually 3 others. One is what I would call a class 2 road in this scenario. It has a double-track main and does cover a lot of ground on the layout, stretching from end to end. There are interchanges here and there with the class 1 road AND the two small ones. One of these is dedicated to mining and the other to lumber/logging.

I haven't got it anywhere near done with scenery and buildings, but there's enough to get the general idea. 'City' names are simply meant to give you some indication of how to look at that area- "Tacoma", for instance, means seacoast with a port and lots of freight interchange, plus a fair amount of passenger traffic due to skiing and such nearby. The two smallest railroads could be changed out for other industries, like a steel mill in place of the logging road or something.

There is some allowance for that passenger service in the form of stations here and there. I felt that once the bones of the layout are in place, more can be added along the way.

I can't drop the plan in here until version 5 ships, but at least this picture will give you a little preview. I'm going to post some of the other plans as jpegs, too.

Just wanted to drop in and say I am still persuing this. I have had alot of crap shoved my way the last couple of months and have been dealing with these personal issues. Once this is all cleared up I'll be back in full force on this project.

Glad to hear from you, Jody. We all know how real life can hijack even the best laid plans. I've been busy with the project. I've been creating multiple versions with the purpose of trying to find the best bench shape. That's a fluid concept. Best for the space-shape or best for the list of 'Wants' and 'Needs' are not necessarily the same thing.

I'm back!!!Life is in order and things are well. I've moved (twice) and still haven't found all my N-Scale stuff, it's here....somewhere. LOL  I am still planing to build the Layout. However, the dimensions have changed and a few of the requirements. I've carved out a 15' 6" x 13' 6" spot in the basement that will house a permanent layout. The majority of the basement will be utilized to set up FreemoN/NTRAK ect. modules that will connect to the main layout via a helix/nolix. The overall dimensions of the basement are roughly 28' x 53'. There is one obstacle that I will have to give space to for the main layout, a set of stairs that make up one end of the space (13' 6" side). The stairs really aren't an issue as long as I leave enough room to enter the layout. A helix can be housed under the stairs and be configured to have exit points at the different module standards and the different levels of the layout if needed.

In order to appease the girlfriend(one day in the future the Mrs Jody) I am opting not to wage war on how much space I am going to carve out of the basement. So, this corner will suffice. I'd like three levels, one that I can sit in a chair and work/run/watch from, one that I can sit in a bar stool and one standing.

I'm still trying to remember Anyrail again but would appreciate any thoughts/help/criticism. I do think that the requirements for all things other than my changes can be met, either in the permanent side or the module side. My main focus on the modules will be to the FreemoN standards at first then to the others.

I can start a new topic on this, but I'd raher keep this one going as there is alot of good stuff here.

Jody

Aha, change of plans.
Since we're on page 12 I think it would be an excellent idea to start a new thread; less confusion and a whole lot of different ideas. If required one can easily enough link back to the relevant posts in this thread.  ;)   ;D