AnyRail Model Railroad Forum

General Category => Track plans => Topic started by: The Fat Controller on November 28, 2013, 11:14:27 PM

Title: Another Newbie with a dream.. (HO Peco code 100)
Post by: The Fat Controller on November 28, 2013, 11:14:27 PM
Hi Everyone,

<<WARNING - I tend to waffle on a bit, so feel free to skip to the end to look at my attempt at a track plan>>

I have been using anyrail for a couple of weeks now, and I must warn you that I am a complete newbie to the hobby. I had a HO set as a child and have recently rekindled the passion. but how things have changed lol, I've been reading up on dcc and am quite impressed at the possibilities.

goal - my aim is to have a layout that can run multiple trains (by one or more operators) with both passenger and working/industry trains for added interactivity.

I have chosen to use the coal industry and will try to create some sort of coal mine with loading area (using conveyor belts) and modify the cars to dump the load through the tracks (and then transferred to a stockpile buy truck/dozer OR another conveyor belt)

I may consider setting an area aside for a future container port to load/unload containers if I get bored.

With the passenger trains I will be going deisel as I'm not up to the task of building overhead wires (not yet anyway). My original hopes of running a countrylink explorer/endeavour were put in the too hard basket when I noticed the 24" curve limit. Although the auscision xpt has an 18" curve, I think an older style diesel loco and passenger cars will look more at home in the layout.

Moving on to the layout... I have spent countless hours using anyrail and have finally come up with something. please bear in mind I was originally trying to use setrack pieces to plug together a layout, however frustration got the better of me and my very poor geometry skills and I eventually figured out how to use flex track. as you can see there is still some cleaning up to be done.

The outer red loop is the main passenger line and will have "country" style platforms scattered along it.
The inner blue line is the coal loop, however if I'm feeling adventurous I may use the two loops as the passenger main up/down lines and work the coal trains in between (as a daily commuter i'm well aware of delays caused by freight trains on the main passenger lines)

all tracks will be on the same level (no gradients) however, the centre of the layout will be below track level to give a better effect and functionality for unloading the coal.

at present the plum/purple line is the straight through loading area and the yellow wye for unloading

I've decided on the one yard for both passenger and industry trains (mainly to save space and make access easier) I adapted the design from a nmra document, so it should allow for easy shunting.

After the design has been nutted out, I'll look into block placement, a wiring plan and then go into further detail on the dcc system.
I'm thinking of using the lenz system with the rr&co "TrainController" running on a touchscreen monitor. The yard however, may be set up on a switchboard separate from the dcc automation?? but i'll see about that once I have sorted out the details.

I welcome any constructive criticism or advice. this is a long term project so don't expect to see major progress any time soon.


(http://i898.photobucket.com/albums/ac185/Little_Blind_Spider/Train/th_coalminev9_zps0ec767b6.jpg) (http://i898.photobucket.com/albums/ac185/Little_Blind_Spider/Train/coalminev9_zps0ec767b6.jpg)
Title: Re: Another Newbie with a dream.. (HO Peco code 100)
Post by: RhB_HJ on November 29, 2013, 02:52:11 AM
Welcome to the Forum. Sooooo does this plan play in Oz? Or where are we?  ;) ???
Title: Re: Another Newbie with a dream.. (HO Peco code 100)
Post by: The Fat Controller on November 29, 2013, 03:12:16 AM
Quote from: RhB_HJ on November 29, 2013, 02:52:11 AM
Welcome to the Forum. Sooooo does this plan play in Oz? Or where are we?  ;) ???

Thanks for the welcome, and yes, I am based in Australia (NSW Central Coast)
Title: Re: Another Newbie with a dream.. (HO Peco code 100)
Post by: Jeff on November 30, 2013, 08:58:32 PM
Interesting. But Oz or nought, given what you want to do, you may want to go back and add a second track to your passenger loop (making extensive use of the 'add parallel flex track tool). Having said that, I fear that you've bitten off more intentions than your space will permit. If it wasn't so cramped, I would tell you to completely redesign the layout to avoid the 'loop-de-loop' racetrack effect.

Once you've got that idea you should be better off. NOW, if you're really so stuck for space AND you would really rather not give up any of your ideas AND you don't have several thousand dollars of HO scale equipment and track sitting around, THEN I suggest you consider a switch to N scale, as that will give you a lot more effective space and an increase in operating possiblities roughly double that of HO. These days N and HO have very similar model availability and it makes considering the choice easier.
Title: Re: Another Newbie with a dream.. (HO Peco code 100)
Post by: BritsTukker on November 30, 2013, 09:56:18 PM
I take Jeff's point. You haven't actually said why you're using HO scale - is it just nostalgia (in which case a change to N would be quite sensible) or because you've already got a significant stock of HO track and rolling stock?

I myself have stuck to HO/OO partly for nostalgia, partly because I still have a significant stock of rolling stock and partly because as I get older my eyesight and dexterity are becoming limiting factors.

I think we need some feedback on your constraints: why everything on the flat? limitations on layout size (you already have a odd overall shape, so what are you working around?), what do the light and dark grey areas signify?
Title: Re: Another Newbie with a dream.. (HO Peco code 100)
Post by: Mike from CT on December 01, 2013, 03:07:21 AM
I'm totally metric-impaired, so I converted the scale to "English" (inches) and was surprised to discover the overall diagram is some 30 feet by 11 feet.  That's a healthy bit of space, even in HO and even with just the 8 meters by 3 meters (roughly 26 1/4 feet x 9 3/4 feet ) of dark gray space.

Brits asked about the various spaces.  I'd ask about walls as well.  As is, the immediate problem is reaching things.

But depending on what the access availability is, there are any number of layouts that should offer for more opportunities for operation - even in HO.....
Title: Re: Another Newbie with a dream.. (HO Peco code 100)
Post by: The Fat Controller on December 01, 2013, 12:16:56 PM
Thanks for the replies,

Firstly, the use of HO scale was more by default then a conscious decision. I do not know much about N scale, but I have an open mind, so I will definitely investigate the options there. Whilst I have a box of old HO track & loco with rolling stock packed away in a box somewhere, I didn't have any intention of incorporating it into this layout.

On the layout, the two grey areas indicate available space, the lighter grey area is approx 2 feet higher then the dark grey (but as the ground is soil, it could be excavated to improve ease of access). They entire grey areas are available for use but obviously access needs to be included.

There are walls around the grey areas on the left, top and right hand side, with the bottom side of the area open for access (with the exception of some randomly spaced pillars)

The sole reason for everything being flat was to keep things simple. Also, as I would like to carry a load (e.g. small grain rice painted black to resemble coal?) I imagine that a loco would struggle on a gradient with anything more then empty cars (uneducated assumption). To make things interesting I would vary the landscape around the track to be above and below track level at various locations to avoid a plain flat board/track.

When designing the track I knew that most would cringe at the "race track" style loops but I figured it was the only way to have a continuous track in the space without the corners getting too tight.
I may consider removing the loops and passenger trains, and just have freight & coal trains moving between 2-3 locations with loading & unloading facilities... but thinking about it, even that may be a big ask in the available space (in HO scale anyway..)

well, I've got plenty to investigate & think about.

cheers,
Chris
Title: Re: Another Newbie with a dream.. (HO Peco code 100)
Post by: Jeff on December 01, 2013, 04:48:03 PM
I didn't have time yesterday to open the plan and really look at more than generalities, so I didn't realize that the space was so big - 11x30 feet is significant, even in HO. In N scale, it's HUGE. You could likely model a big chunk of one territory's railroads in that N space. Amd the benchwork needs a lot more thought, as Mike said. Please consider drawing in the total area including walls so that we can perhaps present a plan that utilizes the space to your advantage. Make sure you draw in things like doors, windows, and anyplace that the ceiling height was restricted (or taller than average, considering your height can vary).

I think I can say without too much stretching that we'll come up with something better than a series of loops!
Title: Re: Another Newbie with a dream.. (HO Peco code 100)
Post by: The Fat Controller on December 01, 2013, 09:29:32 PM
I'll double check the room measurements and draw up a floor plan when I get home tonight (including floor to ceiling heights).

I appreciate the help.

cheers,
Chris
Title: Re: Another Newbie with a dream.. (HO Peco code 100)
Post by: The Fat Controller on December 02, 2013, 01:13:51 PM
Hi Everyone,
I hope all is well.

Here is my attempt at a floor plan:
- black - indicates brick work
- red - indicates unusable area/no go zone
- There are no windows or doors and the area can be accessed through any of the gaps in the brickwork (but i would prefer not to use the far left gap as an access/entry path)
- blue line - below this line it is easy to stand, above the blue line one needs to bend over or kneel down (but still accessible) and can also be excavated easily to improve access if necessary. keep in mind that the area below the blue line can still be utilized with track due to the multiple access points.
The text is in a separate layer to make it easy to hide/delete them.

let me know if I missed anything.
thanks again for any help/advise you can offer.

cheers,
Chris
Title: Re: Another Newbie with a dream.. (HO Peco code 100)
Post by: Jeff on December 02, 2013, 05:22:27 PM
One more question: The Red zones- you say "no go", but is that a floor-to-ceiling blockage, or a 'no space UNDER baseboard' or 'no space OVER baseboard' or... ?
Title: Re: Another Newbie with a dream.. (HO Peco code 100)
Post by: BritsTukker on December 02, 2013, 05:48:09 PM
Chris, If I superimpose your track plan on this room drawing, then part of the coal unloading loop runs through the central red 'no-go' area, and the rear part of the plan is a VERY long reach from the front area where you can stand up. Looks like you were planning a layout on the floor you can crawl around on. If so, I would recommend it.
Would you accept a complete rethink of the plan?
Title: Re: Another Newbie with a dream.. (HO Peco code 100)
Post by: The Fat Controller on December 02, 2013, 09:42:11 PM
The red Zones are floor to ceiling "no go", unfortunately I forgot about these areas when putting together the initial plan.

I think a complete redesign will be required to get the most efficient use of space.

I have a rough sketch of another plan, which is an "E" rotated 90 degrees. I'll try to get it onto anyrail when I find some time. I'm trying to keep the original yard in the same position though.

cheers,
Chris
Title: Re: Another Newbie with a dream.. (HO Peco code 100)
Post by: Jeff on December 03, 2013, 12:16:19 AM
That's ok- your reply gives us all the initial info we need EXCEPT one little detail mentioned by H-J: where is it you want to model? Is it close to home or...? It makes a bit of a difference!
Title: Re: Another Newbie with a dream.. (HO Peco code 100)
Post by: The Fat Controller on December 03, 2013, 01:00:55 AM
oops, I missed that one.

The location is in my home, adjacent to my downstairs workshop area (well it's more of a hobby room & tool storage at the moment)

While there is a much better location just outside my workshop room, unfortunately she who must be obeyed would never approve it.
At least being within my workshop room, I can literally lock myself in and do as I please.

We have only just moved in the house this year, so my workshop room has not been completely set up yet, but that may be an advantage as I can adapt my workshop so that it doesn't limit access to the floor plan area.

P.S. just to confirm, no space on the floor plan will be affected by the workshop area. The workshop is located below the floor plan on the other side of the pillars. And I do not want to run any track through the workshop as it is already near full capacity with all my other hobbies and DIY home maintenance tools/machines (unfortunately).

cheers,
Chris
Title: Re: Another Newbie with a dream.. (HO Peco code 100)
Post by: Jeff on December 03, 2013, 05:37:20 PM
I shall be more clear- Where in the world is the area which you want your railroad to exist? You said "coal". This is a mineral product which shows up in many places around the world at the sites of paleo-oceans. Are you wanting to model Australia, China, Japan, Russia, the U.S., the U.K.,...???

I have heard (and seen) that railroads differ in important ways in different areas of the world. Knowing where YOU are modeling will make any offerings of ours more useful :).
Title: Re: Another Newbie with a dream.. (HO Peco code 100)
Post by: Jeff on December 03, 2013, 05:40:32 PM
Also, you may want to suspend the No Track In Workshop Rule. If you set the room up properly, you can run a branch line into the workshop right across the back of whatever little bench you'll be using to do maintenance and construction on your railroad equipment.
Title: Re: Another Newbie with a dream.. (HO Peco code 100)
Post by: RhB_HJ on December 03, 2013, 07:15:39 PM
Ahhhhh it is a crawl space! Is the floor finished? And we're doing OZ coal country. Hmmmm while I appreciate the "flat" concept, off hand I'd say this calls for the mine/loading on an upper level and the unloading/shipping on the lower level. Which means twice the space with the height transfer via a helix, minimal trackage along that back wall (use it for scenery on the upper level and a harbour transfer on the lower level).
It has potential!  ;) ;)
Title: Re: Another Newbie with a dream.. (HO Peco code 100)
Post by: The Fat Controller on December 03, 2013, 10:54:18 PM
Here is another version that I had in my mind.
It still needs some cleaning up but you get the general idea.
While it is all on the same level, the heights will vary with the coal mine & rear track higher then the shipping areas & yard.

I plan to use Australian loco's & rolling stock however, the scenery & track style will not resemble any particular region.

I did try to design a helix once but I couldn't figure out the clearances & gradients (i'm still a newbie).
I'm still open to suggestions but my design skills haven't reached multi level tracks yet.

cheers,
Chris
Title: Re: Another Newbie with a dream.. (HO Peco code 100)
Post by: Mike from CT on December 03, 2013, 11:01:14 PM
HJ, slow down.... we (well, Chris) hasn't even picked a scale now that Jeff and I messed him up with visions of N scale. 


Actually loading and emptying the cars via tipples and chutes isn't gonna happen in N scale.  Not sure it (particularly emptying) can be done in HO scale, either.  I don't think anyone makes couplers that'll handle rolling a car in a consist and no one I know of makes cars (and supporting the apparatus) to open the bottom gates (whatever they're called actually called) on the bottom of hoppers.  (But see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQgvwvvImrA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQgvwvvImrA) for what some guy built - and the


I always wanted to design an Appalachian coal layout running 40-50 car (15-20 feet long in N scale) trains through the wooded mountains and along the river banks.  Of course, the cost in rolling stock and trees alone would bankrupt anyone this side of Warren Buffett, but I'm the one designing it.  I'm not the one who has to pay for it..... ::)


On a serious note, with dirt floors, what's the issue with climate variance and flooding?  Modeling a flood in 1:84 or 1:160 scale is different from having to plan for one in 1:1 scale.....


Title: Re: Another Newbie with a dream.. (HO Peco code 100)
Post by: Mike from CT on December 04, 2013, 12:44:54 AM
Chris,

Hold on a second..... You're getting ahead of yourself, here.

Rule one of model railroading - you have t0 be able to reach the track.  That means the track really can't be more than .6 meters from an aisle or pop-up (Access) hole that you can reach by crawling under the benchwork.  The minute there's a spot you can't reach, that's where the train will derail.

I think, as a rough drawing in HO (nothing but the mainline and missing aesthetic curves - ignore crossover, it's just to hold track spacing), I'd start a flat layout using a folded dogbone (see diagram).  With multiple levels, I'd break the hidden track so that each direction disappeared and formed staging areas below the blobs.  It gives me a starting concept that has a lot of space to work with for mines, yard, coal destination (port?  power plant?) and even intermodal facilities.

Tabletop (beige-ish area) is reachable and there is more than ample floor space - but some regrading (digging) of floor may be advisable.

BTW, it's drawn with a minimum radius of 24 inches.

Now, you want to go with N scale and watch what we can do (with even (relatively) broader curves....  :D

Title: Re: Another Newbie with a dream.. (HO Peco code 100)
Post by: Jeff on December 04, 2013, 12:46:15 AM
I've seen pictures of coal unloaders in HO scale, but while there IS one existing commercial model, I hope never to be near anyone who is trying to install it and operate it with good results. World War Z is scary enough...

Now would be a good time for H-J to stumble in and explain to TFC how the Helix Tool works in AR...
Title: Re: Another Newbie with a dream.. (HO Peco code 100)
Post by: Mike from CT on December 04, 2013, 01:21:32 AM
Quote from: Jeff on December 04, 2013, 12:46:15 AM

Now would be a good time for H-J to stumble in and explain to TFC how the Helix Tool works in AR...


Actually, the critical thing for design is the minimum radius to achieve clearances between levels.  In HO scale, you'd want at least 4 1/2 inches minimum clearance  (enough to get your fingers around a derailment) and to get 4 1/2 inches at a 2% grade, you need 225 inches of running room.  To get 225 inches per loop, you need a radius of just under 36".  In metric, that's a radius of 90 cm.  Of course, if you use an ovel (with straight trak on opposite sides, you can reduce the radius.
Title: Re: Another Newbie with a dream.. (HO Peco code 100)
Post by: RhB_HJ on December 04, 2013, 07:59:50 PM
OK, so we have a bit more info.
What are those 350x200mm black blobs at the bottom? Masonary columns? Is the space between them open? What is the large red no-go area on the right? How about some pictures??
Title: Re: Another Newbie with a dream.. (HO Peco code 100)
Post by: The Fat Controller on December 05, 2013, 12:21:42 AM
I've added the baseboard to my previous posted design.

Mike - I like your concept (especially the wider 24 inch curves compared to the 19 inch ones on mine)... BUT to make this work, I will need to rethink the use of my workshop area. It's not an easy decision to pull out of other hobbies/projects to free the space required in the already small workshop area. I'll update the floor plan when I get a chance, so that you have the full picture.

The area is not prone to flooding, but the dirt ground will undergo some sort of waterproofing to stop moisture rising from the ground (after any regrading).

Quote from: RhB_HJ on December 04, 2013, 07:59:50 PM
OK, so we have a bit more info.
What are those 350x200mm black blobs at the bottom? Masonary columns? Is the space between them open? What is the large red no-go area on the right? How about some pictures??
The black blobs are 350x350mm Brick Pillars (floor to ceiling) and the gaps between them are accessible. This will become more evident when I incorporate the workshop plan into the design (workshop setup is not yet complete)
The large no-go on the right is a hot water unit, I have included extra clearance around it so the track doesn't get too close and the area is also well ventilated.
At the moment there is too much junk in the way for pictures to be of any use. Still need to unpack things after moving in.

cheers,
Chris
Title: Re: Another Newbie with a dream.. (HO Peco code 100)
Post by: Jeff on December 09, 2013, 12:31:29 AM
Well, keep us updated, if you will. This is getting all the more interesting to us 'Elder Users' in the forum.

AND, please open a new file and have a go at using N scale [specifically code 80 N scale]. I recommend the code 80, in your case, since it will accommodate any rolling stock or train size. Consider that a nice radius is 22", since that is like 40" in HO scale. Then take a look at catalog listings of your typical ore wagons and note the size, in N scale. What might be 4 or 5" in HO becomes 2 1/2-3" in N and that means longer trains and generally a lot more operating in a given space.
Title: Re: Another Newbie with a dream.. (HO Peco code 100)
Post by: The Fat Controller on December 09, 2013, 02:57:19 AM
Quote from: Jeff on December 09, 2013, 12:31:29 AM
Well, keep us updated, if you will. This is getting all the more interesting to us 'Elder Users' in the forum.

AND, please open a new file and have a go at using N scale [specifically code 80 N scale]. I recommend the code 80, in your case, since it will accommodate any rolling stock or train size. Consider that a nice radius is 22", since that is like 40" in HO scale. Then take a look at catalog listings of your typical ore wagons and note the size, in N scale. What might be 4 or 5" in HO becomes 2 1/2-3" in N and that means longer trains and generally a lot more operating in a given space.
I'll do my best to keep the ball rolling, unfortunately leading in to Christmas, spare time is very rare. but that doesn't stop me thinking..
I may forgo the idea of actually loading/unloading scale coal/ore.

Thank you for the advice on N scale. I have actually been thinking about it and will play around with various possibilities.

my current thoughts are as follows:
- Diesels only
- freelance layout, no specific regions (for both layout & trains)
- main switching yard for constructing trains
- another "hub" with dedicated switcher to move cars to surrounding industry sidings
- a number of industry sidings along the main for direct pick-up/drop-off
- I'm open to the idea of single main with passing loops, double main or combination of the two.
- does not have to be a continuous loop
- will aim to have an adjacent workbench with maintenance track
- will try to make the most of the available space without compromising ease of access

cheers,
Chris

P.S. Sorry, I need to work on my rail terminology to make it easier for people to understand what I'm trying to describe.
Title: Re: Another Newbie with a dream.. (HO Peco code 100)
Post by: Jeff on December 10, 2013, 01:44:25 AM
Most of us (with the exclusion of certain Grinches) are under the same time pressure. Then you get to summer and find that the forums go dead because everyone is outside enjoying the weather...

You're doing ok at terminology. We've all heard about every variation, including 10-year-old :). You will find that you can fit more than you imagine into a space that large in N scale, with the added perk that things like flyover clearances track-to-track are a lot less, as well. I got into N scale for the twin reasons of lack of space and the fact that the bigger trains (more cars) in N scale really look great. Personally, I don't find the need to try to get microscopic details onto every engine and car. I find that the older I get, the better the trains look :D. Then you get into the new world of N scale and it has most all of the enhancements that HO has- DCC control, sound chips, and code 55 rail systems, if that's your preference. Like I said, play around with N scale in AR and I think you'll like the results. Two foot-wide baseboard goes a long way!
Title: Re: Another Newbie with a dream.. (HO Peco code 100)
Post by: The Fat Controller on December 11, 2013, 04:43:41 AM
I've attached my poor attempt at a simple N scale Layout.
(areas marked green show access)
please ignore the isolated track near the center.

Not sure I'm happy with it yet but it's a start.
I still need to add heights, grades, structures & landscapes...

on another note I came across the following while researching loco sizes.
Hopper Car - http://www.reynaulds.com/products/Fleischmann/8500.aspx (http://www.reynaulds.com/products/Fleischmann/8500.aspx)
Unloader - http://www.reynaulds.com/products/Fleischmann/9481.aspx (http://www.reynaulds.com/products/Fleischmann/9481.aspx)
while there are more prototypical versions around, the simplicity of this one appeals to me. A coat or two of paint would make it look less "toy like" too.

Hopefully I'm on the right track (excuse the pun)

cheers,
Chris
Title: Re: Another Newbie with a dream.. (HO Peco code 100)
Post by: Jeff on December 11, 2013, 11:09:07 PM
On the right track...? Hmm, we'll give you a point in the right ball park (as we say). That particular "hopper" is something most often used internally in a steel mill, at least in my country. I admit that I haven't tried researching any Australian hoppers. If we want to leave this as a 'Fantasyland' road, then why not try the looks of an American prototype ore car? (http://www.atlastrainman.com/Images/NFreight/70TON/1113/39976B_TQ.jpg)

I won't say that I would distribute the layout like that. I think the way to start is to build baseboard out from the walls (no more than 2.5 feet, say) and add peninsulas out from there into the open space. If I get time, I'll toss out a suggestion or three.