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Another Newbie with a dream.. (HO Peco code 100)

Started by The Fat Controller, November 28, 2013, 11:14:27 PM

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Jeff

I shall be more clear- Where in the world is the area which you want your railroad to exist? You said "coal". This is a mineral product which shows up in many places around the world at the sites of paleo-oceans. Are you wanting to model Australia, China, Japan, Russia, the U.S., the U.K.,...???

I have heard (and seen) that railroads differ in important ways in different areas of the world. Knowing where YOU are modeling will make any offerings of ours more useful :).
Later,                                                AnyRail Fanatic
Jeff                      and Unofficial Guy Who Knows Almost Everything About It

Jeff

Also, you may want to suspend the No Track In Workshop Rule. If you set the room up properly, you can run a branch line into the workshop right across the back of whatever little bench you'll be using to do maintenance and construction on your railroad equipment.
Later,                                                AnyRail Fanatic
Jeff                      and Unofficial Guy Who Knows Almost Everything About It

RhB_HJ

Ahhhhh it is a crawl space! Is the floor finished? And we're doing OZ coal country. Hmmmm while I appreciate the "flat" concept, off hand I'd say this calls for the mine/loading on an upper level and the unloading/shipping on the lower level. Which means twice the space with the height transfer via a helix, minimal trackage along that back wall (use it for scenery on the upper level and a harbour transfer on the lower level).
It has potential!  ;) ;)
Hans-Joerg Mueller
Coldstream, BC   Canada

http://www.rhb-grischun.ca

My train videos

Win7Pro 64bit; 8 GB RAM; i5 2.67GHz; 1920x1080 22" display

The Fat Controller

Here is another version that I had in my mind.
It still needs some cleaning up but you get the general idea.
While it is all on the same level, the heights will vary with the coal mine & rear track higher then the shipping areas & yard.

I plan to use Australian loco's & rolling stock however, the scenery & track style will not resemble any particular region.

I did try to design a helix once but I couldn't figure out the clearances & gradients (i'm still a newbie).
I'm still open to suggestions but my design skills haven't reached multi level tracks yet.

cheers,
Chris

Mike from CT

HJ, slow down.... we (well, Chris) hasn't even picked a scale now that Jeff and I messed him up with visions of N scale. 


Actually loading and emptying the cars via tipples and chutes isn't gonna happen in N scale.  Not sure it (particularly emptying) can be done in HO scale, either.  I don't think anyone makes couplers that'll handle rolling a car in a consist and no one I know of makes cars (and supporting the apparatus) to open the bottom gates (whatever they're called actually called) on the bottom of hoppers.  (But see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQgvwvvImrA for what some guy built - and the


I always wanted to design an Appalachian coal layout running 40-50 car (15-20 feet long in N scale) trains through the wooded mountains and along the river banks.  Of course, the cost in rolling stock and trees alone would bankrupt anyone this side of Warren Buffett, but I'm the one designing it.  I'm not the one who has to pay for it..... ::)


On a serious note, with dirt floors, what's the issue with climate variance and flooding?  Modeling a flood in 1:84 or 1:160 scale is different from having to plan for one in 1:1 scale.....



Mike from CT

#20
Chris,

Hold on a second..... You're getting ahead of yourself, here.

Rule one of model railroading - you have t0 be able to reach the track.  That means the track really can't be more than .6 meters from an aisle or pop-up (Access) hole that you can reach by crawling under the benchwork.  The minute there's a spot you can't reach, that's where the train will derail.

I think, as a rough drawing in HO (nothing but the mainline and missing aesthetic curves - ignore crossover, it's just to hold track spacing), I'd start a flat layout using a folded dogbone (see diagram).  With multiple levels, I'd break the hidden track so that each direction disappeared and formed staging areas below the blobs.  It gives me a starting concept that has a lot of space to work with for mines, yard, coal destination (port?  power plant?) and even intermodal facilities.

Tabletop (beige-ish area) is reachable and there is more than ample floor space - but some regrading (digging) of floor may be advisable.

BTW, it's drawn with a minimum radius of 24 inches.

Now, you want to go with N scale and watch what we can do (with even (relatively) broader curves....  :D


Jeff

I've seen pictures of coal unloaders in HO scale, but while there IS one existing commercial model, I hope never to be near anyone who is trying to install it and operate it with good results. World War Z is scary enough...

Now would be a good time for H-J to stumble in and explain to TFC how the Helix Tool works in AR...
Later,                                                AnyRail Fanatic
Jeff                      and Unofficial Guy Who Knows Almost Everything About It

Mike from CT

#22
Quote from: Jeff on December 04, 2013, 12:46:15 AM

Now would be a good time for H-J to stumble in and explain to TFC how the Helix Tool works in AR...


Actually, the critical thing for design is the minimum radius to achieve clearances between levels.  In HO scale, you'd want at least 4 1/2 inches minimum clearance  (enough to get your fingers around a derailment) and to get 4 1/2 inches at a 2% grade, you need 225 inches of running room.  To get 225 inches per loop, you need a radius of just under 36".  In metric, that's a radius of 90 cm.  Of course, if you use an ovel (with straight trak on opposite sides, you can reduce the radius.

RhB_HJ

OK, so we have a bit more info.
What are those 350x200mm black blobs at the bottom? Masonary columns? Is the space between them open? What is the large red no-go area on the right? How about some pictures??
Hans-Joerg Mueller
Coldstream, BC   Canada

http://www.rhb-grischun.ca

My train videos

Win7Pro 64bit; 8 GB RAM; i5 2.67GHz; 1920x1080 22" display

The Fat Controller

I've added the baseboard to my previous posted design.

Mike - I like your concept (especially the wider 24 inch curves compared to the 19 inch ones on mine)... BUT to make this work, I will need to rethink the use of my workshop area. It's not an easy decision to pull out of other hobbies/projects to free the space required in the already small workshop area. I'll update the floor plan when I get a chance, so that you have the full picture.

The area is not prone to flooding, but the dirt ground will undergo some sort of waterproofing to stop moisture rising from the ground (after any regrading).

Quote from: RhB_HJ on December 04, 2013, 07:59:50 PM
OK, so we have a bit more info.
What are those 350x200mm black blobs at the bottom? Masonary columns? Is the space between them open? What is the large red no-go area on the right? How about some pictures??
The black blobs are 350x350mm Brick Pillars (floor to ceiling) and the gaps between them are accessible. This will become more evident when I incorporate the workshop plan into the design (workshop setup is not yet complete)
The large no-go on the right is a hot water unit, I have included extra clearance around it so the track doesn't get too close and the area is also well ventilated.
At the moment there is too much junk in the way for pictures to be of any use. Still need to unpack things after moving in.

cheers,
Chris

Jeff

#25
Well, keep us updated, if you will. This is getting all the more interesting to us 'Elder Users' in the forum.

AND, please open a new file and have a go at using N scale [specifically code 80 N scale]. I recommend the code 80, in your case, since it will accommodate any rolling stock or train size. Consider that a nice radius is 22", since that is like 40" in HO scale. Then take a look at catalog listings of your typical ore wagons and note the size, in N scale. What might be 4 or 5" in HO becomes 2 1/2-3" in N and that means longer trains and generally a lot more operating in a given space.
Later,                                                AnyRail Fanatic
Jeff                      and Unofficial Guy Who Knows Almost Everything About It

The Fat Controller

Quote from: Jeff on December 09, 2013, 12:31:29 AM
Well, keep us updated, if you will. This is getting all the more interesting to us 'Elder Users' in the forum.

AND, please open a new file and have a go at using N scale [specifically code 80 N scale]. I recommend the code 80, in your case, since it will accommodate any rolling stock or train size. Consider that a nice radius is 22", since that is like 40" in HO scale. Then take a look at catalog listings of your typical ore wagons and note the size, in N scale. What might be 4 or 5" in HO becomes 2 1/2-3" in N and that means longer trains and generally a lot more operating in a given space.
I'll do my best to keep the ball rolling, unfortunately leading in to Christmas, spare time is very rare. but that doesn't stop me thinking..
I may forgo the idea of actually loading/unloading scale coal/ore.

Thank you for the advice on N scale. I have actually been thinking about it and will play around with various possibilities.

my current thoughts are as follows:
- Diesels only
- freelance layout, no specific regions (for both layout & trains)
- main switching yard for constructing trains
- another "hub" with dedicated switcher to move cars to surrounding industry sidings
- a number of industry sidings along the main for direct pick-up/drop-off
- I'm open to the idea of single main with passing loops, double main or combination of the two.
- does not have to be a continuous loop
- will aim to have an adjacent workbench with maintenance track
- will try to make the most of the available space without compromising ease of access

cheers,
Chris

P.S. Sorry, I need to work on my rail terminology to make it easier for people to understand what I'm trying to describe.

Jeff

#27
Most of us (with the exclusion of certain Grinches) are under the same time pressure. Then you get to summer and find that the forums go dead because everyone is outside enjoying the weather...

You're doing ok at terminology. We've all heard about every variation, including 10-year-old :). You will find that you can fit more than you imagine into a space that large in N scale, with the added perk that things like flyover clearances track-to-track are a lot less, as well. I got into N scale for the twin reasons of lack of space and the fact that the bigger trains (more cars) in N scale really look great. Personally, I don't find the need to try to get microscopic details onto every engine and car. I find that the older I get, the better the trains look :D. Then you get into the new world of N scale and it has most all of the enhancements that HO has- DCC control, sound chips, and code 55 rail systems, if that's your preference. Like I said, play around with N scale in AR and I think you'll like the results. Two foot-wide baseboard goes a long way!
Later,                                                AnyRail Fanatic
Jeff                      and Unofficial Guy Who Knows Almost Everything About It

The Fat Controller

I've attached my poor attempt at a simple N scale Layout.
(areas marked green show access)
please ignore the isolated track near the center.

Not sure I'm happy with it yet but it's a start.
I still need to add heights, grades, structures & landscapes...

on another note I came across the following while researching loco sizes.
Hopper Car - http://www.reynaulds.com/products/Fleischmann/8500.aspx
Unloader - http://www.reynaulds.com/products/Fleischmann/9481.aspx
while there are more prototypical versions around, the simplicity of this one appeals to me. A coat or two of paint would make it look less "toy like" too.

Hopefully I'm on the right track (excuse the pun)

cheers,
Chris

Jeff

#29
On the right track...? Hmm, we'll give you a point in the right ball park (as we say). That particular "hopper" is something most often used internally in a steel mill, at least in my country. I admit that I haven't tried researching any Australian hoppers. If we want to leave this as a 'Fantasyland' road, then why not try the looks of an American prototype ore car?

I won't say that I would distribute the layout like that. I think the way to start is to build baseboard out from the walls (no more than 2.5 feet, say) and add peninsulas out from there into the open space. If I get time, I'll toss out a suggestion or three.
Later,                                                AnyRail Fanatic
Jeff                      and Unofficial Guy Who Knows Almost Everything About It