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Assigning elevations to track

Started by RhB_HJ, March 27, 2012, 09:00:15 PM

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RhB_HJ

I mentioned this about a year ago: keeping elevations that have been established is an absolute PITA.

Why is it not possible to assign a precise grade and elevation and then it will stay at those precise values. NEVER to move or change unless the user wants to change it. Never mind what gets changed, removed on either end of that grade or added at any point between the start and the end of that section! That section should stay exactly as assigned!

How is it possible that a section that has been established at 1280mm reverts back to 0mm? There is definitely something wrong when that happens, for whatever reason it may happen. It should be plain impossible! >:(   >:(
Hans-Joerg Mueller
Coldstream, BC   Canada

http://www.rhb-grischun.ca

My train videos

Win7Pro 64bit; 8 GB RAM; i5 2.67GHz; 1920x1080 22" display

RhB_HJ

OK here come the examples.

Example 1

Grab a piece of flextrack, assign the left hand connection point a value of 500mm (assigned and locked!) and the track then registers at 477.14mm elevation.
Hans-Joerg Mueller
Coldstream, BC   Canada

http://www.rhb-grischun.ca

My train videos

Win7Pro 64bit; 8 GB RAM; i5 2.67GHz; 1920x1080 22" display

RhB_HJ

Example 2 the text should illustrate the problem quite clearly
Hans-Joerg Mueller
Coldstream, BC   Canada

http://www.rhb-grischun.ca

My train videos

Win7Pro 64bit; 8 GB RAM; i5 2.67GHz; 1920x1080 22" display

RhB_HJ

#3
Example 3 is also clear.

And how would I fix this manifold problem? I would assign an advisoryy function to the "Max slope %" in settings; it shows red when the value is exceeded. BASTA!

Every piece of track landing on the layout plan would remain at "0" until a new value is assigned. Bringing that piece of track to a new level e.g connecting to another piece of track that already has an assigned elevation woul mean that one end connects and is now level just like that turnout in Example 3. Assigning a specific grade to that turnout - not neccessarily the same as the grade it already connects to should be > Click> value input> Enter. Done!

Since every piece of track would either have a separate % value or be part of a "smoothing group", it would finally be predictable how the elevations behave.
Hans-Joerg Mueller
Coldstream, BC   Canada

http://www.rhb-grischun.ca

My train videos

Win7Pro 64bit; 8 GB RAM; i5 2.67GHz; 1920x1080 22" display

Jeff

#4
I think we lost example 3, unless the text comprises the whole of it.

However, I have to agree: we are faced with a good idea that doesn't work so as to be useful. I'm not sure I understand how you want it to work, but I certainly have my own idea, based on a simple base that I KNOW you agree with- a piece of track stays where placed in elevation unless you change it. As far as the smooth slope tool, I think the idea is simple enough. You pick a piece of track or a piece of track endpoint, then select a second one with shift-click. This selects the track to be changed. It also allows you to tailor what track is included. Then click the 'smooth slope' button. Every selected piece of track should then change height to create a smooth slope.

This includes turnouts. Obviously turnouts could cause problems. What do you do with the branching track? I think that the branch should follow the above rule: if the branch is not selected track, then leave it alone. This especially means that if track at the end of a branch is not selected, but the track or turnout at the beginning of the town is, then it should not be changed.

Is this a clear enough statement of the slope rules?
Later,                                                AnyRail Fanatic
Jeff                      and Unofficial Guy Who Knows Almost Everything About It

RhB_HJ

OOPS  :-[ I forgot to attach that any file.

Hans-Joerg Mueller
Coldstream, BC   Canada

http://www.rhb-grischun.ca

My train videos

Win7Pro 64bit; 8 GB RAM; i5 2.67GHz; 1920x1080 22" display

RhB_HJ

#6
The following workflow sequence is used in CADrail, it is just an example how it could be done.

The track arrangement in the plan is flat to start with (elevation 0), the grade left of the passing siding section will be at 1.8%, the passing siding section at 0 % and the section to the right at 1.5%.

Step 1 select the three track pieces of rhe left curve as a figure (grouped in AR parlance)



Step 2 select the grade tool and click on the figure. That will show the following dialog box.
it shows the curve, the left end is designated as Z1 the end at the turnout Z2.



Check the "Assign new grade", Z1 is the fix point (that's where the grade starts) , insert the 1.8% grade, immediately it will show the elevation of Z2. Want that elevation at a predetermined value? Input that value in Z2 and immediately it shows the grade in %.


Then select the passing section as a figure (group), select grade tool and this will show: no grade, no elevation.



Since it is supposed to be flat all one adds is the precise elevation of Z2 of the first figure as the Z1 in the second figure (a copy/paste routine) enter 0 as the garde and Z2 shows the same elevation as Z1



And the same routine once more for the track on the right of the passing section. Copy the elevation value from the adjacent Z2 into the new Z1 grade add the % and VoilĂ  the end elevation shows in Z2.



Demonstrating/explaining it takes a lot longer than doing it. "Z" indicates the "Z" axis in the plans

Once done it stays there for eternity, til the cows come home or the user adjusts it.  ;) :D The figures (groups) can be as large or as small as needed.
Hans-Joerg Mueller
Coldstream, BC   Canada

http://www.rhb-grischun.ca

My train videos

Win7Pro 64bit; 8 GB RAM; i5 2.67GHz; 1920x1080 22" display

Jeff

Would it not be a lot simpler to simply select some track, right click the selected track, and hit a button that says 'Slope'? Or perhaps, as you note, include a popup window pane that lets you choose the gradient percent on the fly?
Later,                                                AnyRail Fanatic
Jeff                      and Unofficial Guy Who Knows Almost Everything About It

RhB_HJ

Welllll, it all depends what you call simpler.

Designating the figure (x-number of pieces) goes as fast as selecting the correct track pieces in AR - and you can't click on anything that would reset all the track that has been highlighted.
The big advantage with the dialog box is it gives you three elemental inputs

a) which is the fix point Z1 or Z2? Select!
b) what is the grade? % or elevation value!
c) is the grade ascending or descending? set " - " for descending!

In my book that is as simple and as versatile as one can ask for and it stays there til the cows come home. Align anything with an endpoint in all three planes and it will stay exactly where you told it to be.

However, if the user screws up .... well that's his problem. I don't have a problem with that, I have a problem when things that are supposedly assigned values willy-nilly move on the Z-axis.
Hans-Joerg Mueller
Coldstream, BC   Canada

http://www.rhb-grischun.ca

My train videos

Win7Pro 64bit; 8 GB RAM; i5 2.67GHz; 1920x1080 22" display

Jeff

Hmm, well, I will keep hoping for the 'simpler is better' list. Select all the track you want to incline, hit Slope it button, and then it STAYS at that gradient and height until the user changes it or Hell freezes over, whichever comes first.

(p.s. Hell is a town in southern Norway and hasn't entirely frozen over in recorded history)
Later,                                                AnyRail Fanatic
Jeff                      and Unofficial Guy Who Knows Almost Everything About It

RhB_HJ

Well, that is exactly how it works in CADrail but with all the necessary input values. Leave one of them off and you're back to fiddling and diddling.
Hans-Joerg Mueller
Coldstream, BC   Canada

http://www.rhb-grischun.ca

My train videos

Win7Pro 64bit; 8 GB RAM; i5 2.67GHz; 1920x1080 22" display

Jeff

Yeah, I get it. No doubt that if I used CADrail for a few years, their way would seem natural to me, too. I would settle for simple select, maybe fill in a slope, and click. Now, having said that, my way would lend itself to expansion into a 'slope easement use...
Later,                                                AnyRail Fanatic
Jeff                      and Unofficial Guy Who Knows Almost Everything About It

RhB_HJ

That wouldn't be a problem either, in CADrail you can set the distance (length) of an easement and the radius (along with several other variations); that would work exactly the same in the Z-axis. No muss, no fuss. And spot on.
Hans-Joerg Mueller
Coldstream, BC   Canada

http://www.rhb-grischun.ca

My train videos

Win7Pro 64bit; 8 GB RAM; i5 2.67GHz; 1920x1080 22" display

David

I'm reading and I will get back on this.

David.
David Hoogvorst. Founder and Owner of DRail Software. Creator of AnyRail.

Jeff

#14
David,

Either way, it solves any issue of 'well, what do we do with turnouts and such?'. Simply slope the pieces of track that are selected AFTER SETTING THE END HEIGHTS and slope percent, hit one button and you're done. No muss, no fuss, no confusion.

The main point here is LEAVE EVERYTHING ELSE ON THE LAYOUT ALONE. Yes, that means that the user is responsible for not leaving the rest of the track hanging, but I think we can handle it :)
Later,                                                AnyRail Fanatic
Jeff                      and Unofficial Guy Who Knows Almost Everything About It