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New Layout - welcome your comments.

Started by IoM, January 28, 2015, 09:26:09 PM

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IoM

Hi,

I'm new to model railroads but have been planning a reasonably ambitious effort for a pretty long time now and ...hope....I've come up with a layout that will fit in my 15' x 17' space.

I posted just the bottom right hand side station on this forum back in June 2014 and have now incorporated your recommendations not only within the station but elsewhere on the rest of the track as its been completed. I know I need to carry out more work in getting all the track parallel, where appropriate. and will complete that before construction, however, I'd really welcome any comments you mighty have in improving the layout before I set out to start the build in the next month or two.

BritsTukker

Welcome back to the forum.
If this is  a first build, it's pretty ambitious - especially as you say you want to automate it.
Have you costed the whole thing, or is this of no concern?

You only have four inches clearance between the upper and middle levels, and this will not be enough to get your arms in to recover problems, not to mention the difficulty of seeing what's going on. At some points the clearance is even less (the hidden track to the right of the through station) - this is definitely asking for trouble.

Personally, I wouldn't attempt such a complex design as a first build.
I wish you well.

IoM

You've touched on one of the main problems I've experienced. In essence there are only 6" between each level to keep climbs at around 2%, but there are three spots where the vertical height clearance is 'minimal'! I thought I'd countered that by planning to build it on an L-girder basis which  would allow me access from below in an emergency.

However, it is exactly this sort of feedback I'm looking for.

Many thanks.

Mike from CT

Quote from: IoM on January 29, 2015, 12:27:07 AM
You've touched on one of the main problems I've experienced. In essence there are only 6" between each level to keep climbs at around 2%, but there are three spots where the vertical height clearance is 'minimal'! I thought I'd countered that by planning to build it on an L-girder basis which  would allow me access from below in an emergency.

However, it is exactly this sort of feedback I'm looking for.

Many thanks.

Given the siding and platform lengths, I'd expect that you'll be running fairly short trains and that would permit steeper grades without affecting performance.  But there are other clearance issues you need to consider as well.  For instance, where the orange track crosses under the edge of the turntable in the lower right, the turntable is in a pit.  The track-to-track clearance there is 4 inches, but the lower track to the bottom of the pit is less.  I'm not sure how deep an HO turntable pit is, but I'd bet you lose more than an inch of actual clearance.

I'm also curious about the space issue.  Is there additional space at the top for an aisle?  If not, reaching the pink track to fix a derailment is going to be difficult or impossible without a topside creeper (and at least a nuisance, even with one).

I also think there are going to be a couple of areas you'll wish you arranged for easier operation access, including the upper turntable and the dark blue yard.

I'm going to disagree with Brits (which I rarely do).  I think the layout may be extensive if you build it all at once, but building it in stages (e.g., the green/light blue first) can give you years of enjoyment and planning for the eventual is a good way not to have to rip up and start over.

That said, I'll repeat my most constant caveat....  I hope you have friends to help you run it.  That's a lot of operation for one person to take advantage of and a lot of track to maintain.

BritsTukker

Quote from: Mike from CT on January 29, 2015, 12:10:00 PM
For instance, where the orange track crosses under the edge of the turntable in the lower right, the turntable is in a pit.  The track-to-track clearance there is 4 inches, but the lower track to the bottom of the pit is less.  I'm not sure how deep an HO turntable pit is, but I'd bet you lose more than an inch of actual clearance.

Good point, Mike.
The basic (manual) turntable takes about an inch below track level, but if you fit the electric drive it takes considerably more as the motor and gearing go below the well, so the present clearance is not viable.

IoM

Hi Mike,

You are right, I do have access to the pink section from the rear and I do intend running fairly short trains - 3 carriages normally, exceptionally 4 to particular platforms. What would you suggest as a workable gradient for trains of that length? It could mean that I raised the bottom right station to allow for further turntable clearance as well as re-routing the orange track below.

I had always planned to build the layout in stages but had thought of creating the bottom right station area first, however, your suggestion is a good one.

Could you perhaps let me have your suggestions for improvements to the goods yard (dark blue section) and upper turntable area as I'm really keen to have as accurate a final plan as possible before starting construction.

Many thanks,


C.R. Wagus

IoM,

Good start on a layout with lots of switching possibilities.  I assume you plan to add some industry to provide revenue for the railroad.  As some of our colleagues have often pointed out to me, it is important to think about the purpose of the layout before making the layout file. There are some great stations and service facilities but not much else to generate traffic on the railroad.

Others have also pointed out that the aisles are too tight in places and that it will be very difficult to reach about 1/3 of the track for maintenance and rerailing cars, engines, etc.  I noticed that the heights of tracks on the various levels are way too tight.  Increasing the vertical spacing is required but this may result in very steep track slopes.  The pink track on the upper left shows two slopes greater than 4.5% although this may be a mistake.  In my experience, it is not a good idea to include switches on sloped track.  The switch spur must have the same slope as the through track and then a transition to the level of the surrounding track level or switching difficulties and derailments will occur.

I generally check the ability to reach track work by inserting a circle with 15" radius in one of the aisles.  I then left click and drag the circle along the edges of the layout aisles.  Any track work that falls outside the circle will be difficult if not impossible to reach.  I recently had this pointed out to me by posts in this forum and had to revise my plans.  Consider adding access hatches at strategic places to resolve this problem.  A good way to determine the length of track necessary to provide adequate clearance is to click on each piece of track and read the length of that track section on the bottom right of the screen.  Add up all of the sections and multiply by the slope (in %) you wish to use.  The National Model Railroad Association (nmra.org) recommends a maximum of 3% in their track standards.  They also provide recommended clearances between tracks that cross each other.  Don't forget to allow for track, roadbed and platform thickness at the crossing.

Your are off to a good start but need to resolve a few issues before starting to build the layout.  Keep working on your plan and you ought to have a great working layout.

Carl

Mike from CT

#7
Quote from: IoM on January 29, 2015, 08:12:33 PM
You are right, I do have access to the pink section from the rear and I do intend running fairly short trains - 3 carriages normally, exceptionally 4 to particular platforms. What would you suggest as a workable gradient for trains of that length? It could mean that I raised the bottom right station to allow for further turntable clearance as well as re-routing the orange track below.

I'd expect that most models of recent release (not prototype's age)  would have no problem with 3% grades and short runs (in the US called "flyovers" where the grade is solely so that one track can "fly over" another) of 3.5% or even 4% would work.  But it depends on a number of factors (the locomotive, the grade, the curve, traction and, probably, others.  I suspect someone running the same type of equipment (Brits, you there?) can give you some general ideas, but you can take the longest board possible (some number of feet), fasten some track and, if you have a locomotive and rolling stock, do your own tests.  Here in the States, the "standard" framing stud is 8 feet long.  Leaving one end on the surface and propping up the other edge 1" at a time gives a rough approximation of a 1% (actually 1.04%) grade.  So place some track on the stud, take some 1 inch thick props and slowly build up the other end and try running a train up the ramp and see what works.  One caveat: this is straight track.  Engines have a bit more trouble on a curve (and the tighter the curve, the more trouble) so, when you get slippage or a noticeable deterioration in pulling power, figure the maximum grade your engine can handle is at least 1% less than the last grade at which it showed no problems.

Quote
I had always planned to build the layout in stages but had thought of creating the bottom right station area first, however, your suggestion is a good one.

My bias is to get the trains running first and the light blue and green section gives a nice, continuous run.  It's also at the lowest level and it's easier to build the bottom up than top down. (The capstone of an arch is the last piece inserted, not the first).  That said, the station at the lower right is going to be a scenic and operational highlight, so I can understand the impatience.

Quote
Could you perhaps let me have your suggestions for improvements to the goods yard (dark blue section) and upper turntable area as I'm really keen to have as accurate a final plan as possible before starting construction.

For the goods yard, the simplest solution is to continue the shunting lead (that wraps around down and to the left) and add a connection back into the main.  Adding a crossover between the mains so trains running a clockwise (at that point) direction also helps.  The only other change I might try for is adding a runaround within the dark blue tracks, in addition to the one that uses the main. THose two changes will make the dark blue goods yard readily operable from both directions (assuming you're in Great Britain and used to left handed running the first change is the more critical), without worrying about what's happening on the main at the same time.  But it depends on your vision for how you'll operate the goods yard.

The turntable problem is is one of the switchback necessary to reach it being a bottleneck.  No promises,  but I'll try to work up an alternative where the turntable is on the right end and, possible the dark blue goods yard below is flipped to make space (also better for left-handed running).  That's the first approach I'd try, at any rate.

Soulnet

I don't deal with slopes on my layout but are sidings on slopes going to be an issue? What's going to hold the rolling stock in place if it doesn't have an engine?

Reach is going to be a major issue! If you want to see what it's like, use your dining table and put tracks on it every 6 inches (say from 6 inches to 48 inches). If you have something like a shoe box as well put that between yourself and the first piece of track at 6 inches. Using this you'll know what 'comfortable' with regards to reach will feel like and if you have scenery or buildings on the edge how much it will reduce that reach :)

IoM

Many thanks to you all for your practical advice.

Just to pick up on a few suggestions:
QuoteI assume you plan to add some industry to provide revenue for the railroad.  As some of our colleagues have often pointed out to me, it is important to think about the purpose of the layout before making the layout file. There are some great stations and service facilities but not much else to generate traffic on the railroad.

My original intention was to add a saw mill at the top left hand side of the pink station, with a 'forest' section supplying the tree trunks at the light blue sidings area. There is a gas works in the top RHS of the fiddle yard that will need the supply of coal and will need gas to be taken away to both terminal stations. Coal will also be required in the proposed coal drop (represented by a large rectangle adjacent to the turntable in the pink station) - I'll have to name these stations pretty soon!...and to the coal staithes that will be placed adjacent to the turntable in the maroon station.

There's the fiddle yard itself which will provide access for goods to the road as well as similar provision in each of the three stations. That was my plan but I'd be interested in any other thoughts you might have Carl.

I also do note your concerns regarding access and I will give this further thought.

Thank you Mike for your simple practical advice in checking out the inclines. Currently I've bought some locos and rolling stock and have converted then to Kadee couplings and added resistors to the rolling stock for block detection. I've just bought my first tranche of timber to construct the baseboard and the next step will be to get the track and points so that construction can start. I'll certainly check out your incline plan when I've got the track and controller.

QuoteFor the goods yard, the simplest solution is to continue the shunting lead (that wraps around down and to the left) and add a connection back into the main.  Adding a crossover between the mains so trains running a clockwise (at that point) direction also helps.  The only other change I might try for is adding a runaround within the dark blue tracks, in addition to the one that uses the main. Those two changes will make the dark blue goods yard readily operable from both directions (assuming you're in Great Britain and used to left handed running the first change is the more critical), without worrying about what's happening on the main at the same time.  But it depends on your vision for how you'll operate the goods yard.

I think those alterations would work well and should fit in fairly easily.

QuoteThe turntable problem is is one of the switchback necessary to reach it being a bottleneck.  No promises,  but I'll try to work up an alternative where the turntable is on the right end and, possible the dark blue goods yard below is flipped to make space (also better for left-handed running).

That's a very generous offer and really was not expected. I did spend a lot of time working on this area as I particularly wanted to incorporate the coal drop which I've already bought and looks best with access to it from the RHS. I only plan to shunt up to 4 coal wagons up on to it and that is why I ended up with a somewhat convoluted bottleneck to the turntable. However, any practical suggestions would be really welcomed.

Many thanks,