auto reverse loop automation ?

[vvarady]

Hi,
Is there a way to automate the EXITING, Kato type turnouts,(Grn7 & Yel5) depending on train direction ?   
I will have a control panel to manually switch all turnouts using NCE Switch-Kats.
I would like to setup ROUTES using other NCE hardware which would be preprogrammed and controlled with the DCC hand held.
Any suggestions or thoughts on this as well as on the entire layout is greatly appreciated.

[Tom Springer]

If you are doing manual switching of your turnouts, what are you looking for in an "automated" environment?  Are you asking just about auto-reversers?  NCE, Digitrax, DCC Specialties and others make auto-reversing products.

Depending on how you have your layout set up, block detection, etc., you may want to look at JMRI (Java Model Railroad Interface) which will help automate your layout, with routes, etc.

If you want people's thought on your layout, attaching the .ANY file would be better; working from a JPG is very limited; one can't see the track type/parts, etc in a JPG, nor can one check the various numbers, such as clearances, heights, etc.

[vvarady]

Hi,
Hope you had a nice holiday.
My automation dilemma is for the Reversing section. I would like to setup that section so regardless of train direction the EXITING turnout points are set correctly. I suppose I could just connect both turnouts together and the exiting turnout would be in correct position.
I attached the .ANY file as you suggested, all comments appreciated.
Thanks

[Tom Springer]

Not sure why the referencing to the EXITING points matter. Are you trying to throw the turnouts?  Thought you did that yourself, so you shouldn't care about changing the polarity within the turnouts, per se.  I think what you simply need is to get the polarity of the red reversing section track changed very quickly once a train enters that track.  If so, it's automatic polarity reversing that is need. So that's just an auto-reverser device.

Across various forums, the more experienced model railroaders (far beyond me) are saying that the PSX-AR from DCC Specialties is the best auto-reverser one can use; switches faster than others and is claimed to be the easiest to use.  Sounds like that is all you need if you simply want the short circuit that occurs when crossing into the reversing section to very quickly trip the auto-reverser and make things change quickly before the short trips anything else.

If this was up to me, I'd probably replace the 20170 curved part at the top of the red reversing section with a series of smaller track parts (20171) and isolate the reversing section at the end of each 20171 coming off the 2 turnouts, so there was a small distance away from each turnout before the current polarity was switched. See the attached where the new white 20171 parts connect to the red reversing section; I'd put the isolation where the white and red tracks connect.

[Keesoldscool]

Nice plan, but why one reverse section? If used once, all train will go in the same direction.

[vvarady]

I guess I wasn't really thinking, but take a look at the WYE's.
Not sure how many reversing modules needed or how to wire ?
If you turn on Reverse loops and turn off sections you can see better.
Thx

[vvarady]

Instead of the 20222 Y switch I reconfigured it with a 20221 turnout.
The Reverse loop only shows on the lower WYE section ?
I'm not sure if the software cares about non-routing and routing options in Kato.

[Tom Springer]

Vic,

Right; both parts of that "wye" are reverse loops.  Don't know why the software doesn't show both. Maybe @David can answer.

Presumably you're treating the whole wye section as a single reversing section and letting something like a PSX-AR handle it; that way, there won't be issues when throwing one of the turnouts in the section.

[vvarady]

Hi,
All my Kato turnouts are isolated at there exits as suggested by Mike Fifer @Youtube. Can you mark up the dwg to show where isolators should be as well as any track power. The colored P's are where the track power drops connect to that district color.
I also don't know where an AR1 should connect.
Each of the 4 colors shown with Sections "ON" are their own power districts and are tied to 4 different fuse inputs on a 6 district NCE circuit breaker module.
I would wire the AR1 only to a fifth district.
Thanks again for all your hep and patience.

Vic

[Tom Springer]

Vic,

Have you looked at the Digitrax instruction sheet for the AR1?  http://www.digitrax.com/media/apps/products/autoreversing/ar1/documents/AR1.pdf

The diagram is pretty straightforward.  You don't connect track power coming from the buss directly to the track in the reversing loop (that's your reversing section even if it doesn't look like a "loop").  Instead you connect the feeder from the track to the AR1 using the appropriate left-end connection ports and then connect a feeder pair from the right-end ports to a section of track outside the loop - where the train would enter/exit the loop.  As you have 2 places because it's not an actual loop with a single entry/exit point, here's a way to do it for your case.

Have 2 small sections of track, each connected to the leg of the turnouts that lead into the reversing track; isolate the connections of these track segments where they connect to the reversing track using plastic, not metal, rail joiners; place a power feeder where these tracks connect to each turnout, wire each end of these 2 sets of feeders together, making sure rail A goes to rail A and B to B, with a third wire added to go to the AR1 using the track A/B right-end connection ports; have a single power feeder (2 wires) from the AR1 "out to reversing section" left-end ports A/B to the reversing track section, somewhere in the middle so power is evenly distributed out from this point down both "directions" of the reversing track.

If you don't mix up rail A and B outside the reversing section, everything should come out correctly; mix them up and you may get a damaging short circuit.

There are videos on YouTube that show how to wire/set up an AR1; search using "Digitrax AR1"  Here are 2 that I've seen before:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC_CXLl9Alo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDu7HS1ycmE

[vvarady]

Hi,
I was having a little trouble understanding how you described the connections, so a picture is worth a 1000 words for me.
I attached a marked up drawing showing the red & blk BUSS wire connections for each power district.
The BUSS A & B to be used for the AR1 buss input power connections would be put on it's own district as a precaution.
I show the AR1 "reverse section" connections in between the two turnouts.
Let me know if this will work and if any of the isolated sections might be redundant.
I am using the isolators as shown and not just as a way to make section colors.
OBTW: check out the reverse loop when turned on

Thanks again

[Tom Springer]

Attached is an example of how to put an AR1 om the "standard" WYE configuration, as described in the DigiTrax AR1 document. The "standard" WYE is the track on the left side, with the AR1 connections and the isolation points marked (the last letter "E" in "here" is on these connection points.

The track on the right side is the same WYE in a different format... the objective of this illustration is to put the AR1 in place on the right side "WYE" track...

(If you don't see how the track on the right side is the same "WYE" as the track on the left side, enable layer 2 ...)

To see one way the new AR1 can be placed "correctly", enable layer 3.  But only after putting the AR1 in place on the right side track ...

[vvarady]

Tom,
I have a cheaper way using a diamond.
Let me know if this would work.

Thanks

[Tom Springer]

Vic,

I'm not sure if you are trying to manage two independent tracks with a single AR1; that generally doesn't work.  Your setup with the crossing configuration would need 2 AR1 units.

If you like the crossing version, then have fun with it.  Personally, I thought the former version was ok, once properly wired.

If you decide to go with the crossing approach ... and two AR1 units ... meaning two reversing sections almost intertwined ...

Just be careful to make sure that you have sufficient breaker protection if you have that crossing; crossings can be somewhat troublesome in terms of being a source of derailment if taken too fast or there are metal wheels "out of spec" - just like turnouts can. Generally, one should not include any type of track part that involves a "frog" and power separation across the rails of the track part, i.e., turnouts or crossings.  In a power-reversing "section" (district), if a derailment happens in one of those track parts, or if wheels are "out of spec" and accidentally bridge across the independent rails, not only do you get a short but the auto-reverser may have serious issues handling the short it thinks is trying to tell it to reverse the track power, and a constant tripping of the breaker could occur; if no breaker is present, then something could actually short out and destruct.  This is especially true when using DCC, as even the best power breaker may not prevent a really strong short from damaging decoders.

A derailment within a crossing that is part of two reversing sections ... could mean shorting across one section into the other ... and given the potential damage that might then occur ... that area of your layout should be labeled "Troublesome Junction".  (btw, there is a real Troublesome, Colorado, where a famous derailment on the old DRG&W occurred in the 1950s, leading to the best railroad safety documentary ever produced ... whence the 'Troublesome Junction' reference.)

Two of the lessons I've learned the hard way in this long life ...

"Cheap" does not always means it's less costly.

Instead of making things more complex, making things simpler often works for the better.  Especially when it comes to track plans.

[vvarady]

It's me again. I guess I need my drawing labeled with iso points, track buss power A&B and 2 AR1's hooked up. I wasn't sure which was the track buss input and the reversing output to track.
I've attached the dwg going back to all turnouts.
Fell free to move notes to the appropriate location.