Ideas for electrical blocks for DCC plan requested

[Future-Digital]

I have been working on a floor plan for WAY too long but am now getting to where I may actually be able to build it.


I was hoping that eventually David would build in electrical wiring and other DCC aids, but they are not yet present.

As I really don't know anything about electrical blocks for a pure DCC system and even less about the problems of reverse loops and their wiring, I thought I'd ask around.

Anyone want to jump in and give a few lessons? The plan, as it stands, is included. Feel free to make any and all comments that would help with either the electrical blocks and/or reverse loops.

Bill

[Tom Springer]

Bill,

Personally, I'm not sure that AnyRail as a design program should try to offer knowledge about DCC as so much of what one should want to know (equipment, wiring, controls, etc.) might be beyond the scope of any layout design program.  Plus there are many different options that one has available in the DCC world that the DCC universe would dwarf the AnyRail galaxy.  Maybe a forum category or two or three could be useful for peer discussions (DCC considerations, Wiring concepts, Operational considerations, etc, might be possibilities).

Two very good places to go to for DCC information, in order are:

www.wiringfordcc.com    -- pretty much like a bible for DCC concepts and installations

dccwiki.com -- if it's not in this, maybe it's not important

The product pages for Digitrax and NCE are also good places to find out about the basic equipment, certainly for starting out in DCC.

Also the free Model Railroad Hobbyist magazine website - model-railroad-hobbyist.com - has many articles and forum discussions that can provide valuable information for the beginner.  They have done a series of columns ("clinics") on DCC.  While the magazine now has a paid (expanded) version, the free one is still available, plus their forums are a good source of information.

* * *

One thing about operational considerations regarding plans when it comes to DCC, for me, is to know how one intends to operate the various aspects.  Just from a controller (throttle), or automated in some regard - ala the JMRI approach.  And how detailed/deep will one get?  Predetermined "routes" that require advanced planning and some type of automation?  Multiple independent trains running at the same time?  Does one need block detection and some type of control to allow for the multiple trains to run?  (One of the great benefits of DCC is the ability to run multiple trains at once.)  Are industries managed using independent switchers?  Yards, as well?  Are operational track signals going to be used (ever), and if so, are they part of the operational considerations; i.e, does block detection need to be provided to make sure signals are set automatically/properly?  And a whole lot more...

The best way for beginners to wire for DCC ... in my opinion, as if I were to start as a newbie ... is to just set up basic block structures, primarily wiring for short circuit protection so a failure is limited to a segment of the layout and doesn't shut down the whole thing.  Makes it easier to find a short that way. And things then can be staged in after the basics are done.

* * *

Regarding any comments on your plan ... is this original intended/designed as a DC plan?  If so, did you plan to have it wired in any particular way/style?  Are there isolated blocks already incorporated in it?  Are these shown in any way?  Knowing the existing particulars/thoughts would be important.  Being a large plan, there may be a lot of effort needed to accomplish all the wiring aspects.

However, it may be more worthwhile to start with a much simpler plan and using a new forum category, provide threads for discussing various elements with the simpler (base) plan as the foundation for such an effort, so the concepts are discussed in a more general way.  That's my thought.  Maybe there is a plan from the 101 plans book that we could decide is a good one but simple enough to use.

* * *

One item that I personally believe would be helpful to start with would be to have the simple ability in AnyRail to indicate that a track connection is "electrically isolated", so this property could be visible in a way similar to "section isolators" or the demarcation between visible and hidden track. My view: something like 2 bars separated similar to how the "equal" sign is drawn, maybe colored white within a section isolator, and something like red in other connections (with their white background today).  If we had that ability, then showing block separation for wiring would be a lot easier than trying to describe in 1000 words all the various points on an example (or real) layout.  Personally, I find that the ability to "show" something is a lot better than "telling" when helping people see things.

[Future-Digital]

The original idea has always been to be fully DCC. I never had any idea of otherwise doing it. I like the idea of hand held controls, but don't mind having the automated system, JMRI, as an alternate method for when I just want to sit and do nothing. There is no wiring of any kind shown because I don't have any. That is why I am asking.

I expect to build parts of the plan at a time, running it as I expand, always with the full plan in mind. I will probably start in the far right corner as a circle, or something like that, and then add switches and additional track as I get it built.

Although I originally designed this plan using sectional track, the final product will be flex track. The only reason I have not used flex in the AnyRail plan that I have been unable to manipulate the flex track and related AnyRail controls well enough to do it.


My hands are very unsteady and I never get what I try to make. I expect I will just stay with sectional track in AnyRail and as I print it and transfer the printout to a drawing on the Baseboard I will just substitute flex. I never have liked sectional. It was just something I was forced to use to be able to design ANY thing. My computer and I are very slow, together, as I can't control my hands well enough to use many mouse controls. None-the-less, I persevere.

I have looked at the various sites that you mentioned, and read them several times over the years. They are, to me, too confusing. I seem to understand as I read, but I come away with nothing. I can't seem to put what I read into a real PLAN.

I like your idea about having "the simple ability in AnyRail to indicate that a track connection is "electrically isolated"." That is what I was referring to about having DCC and wiring abilities built into AnyRail. I didn't expect it to divide up my plan and stick wires on it automatically (boy, wouldn't that be fancy).


My biggest concern is the isolation that needs to be done for Reverse Loops. I am either totally misunderstanding what I am seeing in my plan when I use Isolators to control the electrical parts of my turnouts, or just don't understand something else. I put in Isolators and sometimes it changes the marking on the tracks and other times it doesn't. I just don't understand.

Oh, well, this has gone on long enough for now. Have to leave for an appointment.

I will be back to see if anyone has commented. See you later, and thanks.

Bill

[Tom Springer]

Bill,

The vast majority of info out there on DCC is probably very confusing for anyone coming into DCC.  The DCC world is primarily "advanced DCC" discussions, and very little on basic DCC for people to understand. I'm guessing this is because there are a few decent intro books out there and so everyone discussing DCC is doing it as an advanced-level discussion.  My passion for years has been baseball, and I never realized what the average fan thinks of all the discussions about 'advanced statistics' and "Sabrmetrics" ... until I did a spring guide with these stats for players, and people thought I was speaking Klingon ... so I can understand how DCC can be confusing to people not already well versed about it.

Hence we have a "forest for the trees" problem, probably.

So here's my overview of "DCC basics".

First thing for folks new to DCC to probably understand is that any layout wired "correctly" for DC will (generally) work as a basic DCC layout if a DCC controller is substituted for the DC throttle ... with this caveat ...  one "can" then run a DC ("analog") locomotive on some DCC systems, providing that (imho) it's a recently built one, i.e., having a good quality motor and internal electronics/wiring. The entry-level DCC systems from Digitrax and NCE can provide this ability to run these locomotives.  Older DC ones, though, are problematic..

I would suggest that wiring a layout as if DC was going to be the first usage mode, and having blocks to isolate for possible shorts, would make an easier path to DCC than to try for a full DCC operational layout in the beginning.  Even for one being built in stages (modules).

The concepts of the block arrangement and block construction for DC are just as valid for DCC - isolate as much as one can, use multiple power feeders, even within a single block, use turnout isolation/separately powered, a main buss that, for large layouts, drives/feeds "districts" with their own sub-buss, etc.  Also important are all of the various electrical considerations about power dropping off, length of wires, multiple buss runs vs. one long one, etc., first done as if DC is the mode of operation and then conversion to DCC will be easier.

As long as the layout is configured into well-defined electrically-isolated blocks ("operational segments/districts"), nothing about adding DCC to the layout should then be overwhelming.  Equipment (locomotives) are a whole different story, however.  And a whole separate discussion.

As an exercise, take a reasonable-sized layout - not your own, but one found somewhere in this forum, so that you don't have any preconceptions about how it works - with perhaps a yard, some sidings, a few industry service tracks, etc. - and isolate each different type of track into it's own "district".  Presume that advanced features such as "reversing" track/wyes, etc, are not part of this layout so that things are simplified for starting this effort.  [Someday if we have a forum section on this topic, I'd provide my AnyRail version of my "favorite" layout from the Kalmbach 101 plan book for this exercise...]

Isolate each different type of track... each yard is a district with it's own sub-buss from the main buss; all track entering the yard area from any/all ends is connected with an isolated connection. (If we had AnyRail support for this, I'd put a big = on that connection.  Maybe for now, a big E superimposed on it would work.  For the moment, don't try to divide up any of the tracks within the yard, just have the yard as it's own "block"/power district.

Do that same for all sidings that are present; each is an independent power district (block), isolated at the leg of each turnout.

Now isolate all remaining turnout legs everywhere (except in the yard); each turnout is electrically isolated... because shorts can often occur within them, around the points and frogs.  [I choose to use the AnyRail section capability for this - name each individual district and chose a separate color for each, so that I can see each on a layout.]

Once all the turnouts, sidings, industry tracks are isolated (and colored), see what remains beyond just the mainline tracks.  Which need to be considered as separate individual districts?  Can any of them, although electrically isolated, be "joined" so they are fed from the same power sub-buss?

Next, can/should the mainline long track runs be broken up into smaller segments, and isolated appropriately?  Should they be, for finding shorts?

If all of this is done, you should have a reasonably wired DC layout version.  And a good foundation for doing the same effort on your own layout.

So, after doing your own layout - even if built in portions ("modules") in real life - even though you want to run DCC, get a cheap DC power pack and run a single DC locomotive all over the wired layout.  And attach some cars with metal, not plastic, wheel sets.  You want to see where shorts/poor wiring/soldering problems might be occurring, so using metal, not plastic, wheel sets on those cars is important.  And longer trains if at all possible, to check how progressing across/through turnouts is working.  And save on buying DCC equipment, so you don't buy the wrong stuff.  Then I'd recommend you start with buying an entry-level DCC system from Digitrax or NCE once you complete the building process for your first "module" and have it running DC as a starter.

* * *

Yards and isolation and districts within yards (storage tracks and service facilities) are left for another time.

* * *

Once the layout is working, then consider adding a wye somewhere ... that then becomes a reversing section ... and is probably the easiest way to understand reversing section concepts.  See how one would 'turn' a locomotive using the wye, where the current flow has to reverse direction ... and you have a good basic knowledge about this topic.

Then imagine connecting 2 simple ovals using a wye turnout where the entry leg attaches to the first oval, and the outer 2 legs attach to each side of the second oval.  With all of that, a reversing section and it's wiring and operational characteristics should be pretty much understood.

* * *

Next, there should be separate discussions on turnouts, what you plan to use to operate them (what type/brand of motors), and how you plan/desire to control their operations.  Although I don't recommend products - life is too short to get into a product-discussion "war" ... strictly as an example, if one were to use Tortoise motors with a DC layout, one could later attach a DCC decoder to them to operate using DCC.

* * *

And finally ... if there ever is a final area ... the equipment issues ... and older locomotives converted to DCC ... and now that Aztec is gone, getting upgraded frames for older locomotives is becoming a huge issue ... so if at all possible, new "DCC friendly" ones with correct split frame and motor isolation already in place are the ones planned to be used.  There is nothing like having a layout all done and ready, DCC in place and the money spent on that, and then finding out that the equipment conversion hurdle will eat away one's retirement savings ...
* * *
Hope this helps in some small way.

[mrsax2000]

There are several wyes and reverse loops.  Are they all needed?  They will require isolation and reverse modules (additional cost to consider).

If you can simplify the plan, the wiring will be easier, etc.

There is a lot happening in your plan.  You'll need to spend some time analyzing where to block sections for boosters, etc.  The other responses provided links and these should be very helpful.