Reverse Loop Problem

[Future-Digital]

I have a reverse loop problem that I would like to ask the community about.

Perhaps I just don't understand the situation, but no matter how many isolators I put into my reverse loop it still shows as a reverse loop. Isn't adding isolators supposed to help the situation? The red lines never go away.

Any ideas on how to make this situation actually work? I would appreciate all the good advice I can get.

Keep in mind that I do NOT really want to revise the track routes, as it has taken a LONG time to design the whole of which this is just a small part.

Thank you!


Bill

[Keesoldscool]

Hello Bill,

Did you try in 'Settings' removing the checkmark before 'Reverse loops'?

[Tom Springer]

Bill,

The "Isolators" in AnyRail are just to separate 'sections'.  There is no electrical/wiring concept associated with them as AnyRail does not (yet) have support for electrical/wiring concepts, just seeing the whole layout as a single electrically-wired "block".

[Future-Digital]

Hello, Keesoldscool

I know about the checkmark. I intended it as a way to find the problem area.

Well, if putting isolators into AnyRail doesn't make any electrical difference IN AnyRail, does anyone have an idea of what WILL, on the real life platform?


Bill

[Keesoldscool]

Hello Bill,

I know you are an experienced user of Anyrail. I should have known, you knew about the checkmark. I have a smal fiddleyard plan, also with a reverse loop. If I able the checkmark my reverseloop also turns red. Even without isolatoters. I think, but obviously David knows for sure, it's a warning feature and nothing more. Maybe it supposed to be a functional option, but at the moment it isn't.
My English is not that good, that I do understand what yoy mean with 'on the real life platform, but if it's how it is operating on a real track, I can ensure it works and needs to be done with a reverseloop module. But of course you know.

Gtz.

Kees

[Tom Springer]

Bill,

You are on the right track using isolators for the real layout; unfortunately, the only way to have AnyRail not 'see' the reverse loop is to disconnect track somewhere within the identified reverse loop.

For the real layout, to indicate where I need electrically-isolated connections, I use a line element placed perpendicular across the connection, and for track feeders, something similar in the form of 2 lines on the track.  (An example is attached)

I'm hoping we will get the ability to 'type' an isolator/connection so we can indicate it's purpose (beyond just section breaks), someday being able to have it be an electrical isolation, wiring point, etc.

[Future-Digital]

Hello, Keesoldscool and Tom,

Yes, I suspected as much. I suppose I was just assuming that an isolator actually isolated things.

Well, trial and error, as they always say, leads to lots of interesting experiences.

I hope that some day the Reverse Loop Indicator will serve as a functional tool along with real isolators, rather than merely as a static warning.

Keesoldscool, don't worry about your English. I have students everyday that wish they were as good at it as you are. Keep up the good work.

Tom, I just might adopt your visual method of isolating. Can't hurt, I suppose.

Thanks to both of you.


Bill

[RCMan]

Isolators do have a purpose, they define sections in AnyRail.
You could make the reverse loop a section an give it a name and/or color to be displayed as a reverse loop.

Dennis

[Future-Digital]

Hello, RCMan,

Sections and Colors Long since done.

However, I am still looking for the best place to put the isolators for ELECTRICAL isolation. I need to make those to get the system to work.


Bill

[Tom Springer]

Bill,

The general rule for a reversing section is the length of the actual track segment that needs to be isolated has to hold your longest train.  That generally/probably is much less than the length of the track that AR marks as the reversing loop.  You only want your reverser of choice to deal with just changing the polarity of that track segment, not the whole "loop".  (This is based on the condition when cars have metal, not plastic, wheels on them that is used to aid in block occupancy detection, but is a good rule to follow regardless of the type of wheels one uses.)

Be careful if you have a crossing within the polarity-reversed track segment, if the different through paths are in different segments and not 'reversed' at the same time, as a derailment at the crossing can cause a short then.

You also want a track piece attached to the turnout through which the train enters the reversing loop to be part of the wiring block containing that turnout and not isolated from it so that all engines in the train clear this turnout fully before entering the polarity-reversed track segment.  When this becomes an exit point from the loop, this track piece will then act as the trigger to reverse the loop to match the turnout that the engines are about to reach.

If you provide the actual layout or the portion in question as an .Any file, we can try to help you find the isolation points.  Presuming you know the maximum length of your trains through that section so the actual length of the track whose polarity is reversed is defined.

[RCMan]

Hello, RCMan,

Sections and Colors Long since done.

However, I am still looking for the best place to put the isolators for ELECTRICAL isolation. I need to make those to get the system to work.


Bill

With so many different products to use for doing a reversing loop, it will be up to you how to isolate the loop.  Some are as simple as the AR-1 or as sophisticated as the Digikeijs DR5013.

Dennis

[Future-Digital]

Thank you, RCMan.

Tom,

The .any file is attached to my first entry in this thread.

There are two crossings in the loop. If I remove them from the diagram the reverse loops disappear.

Is THAT where I need to put isolators? With extensions, of course.


Bill

[Tom Springer]

Bill,

The crossing is not the problem.  Replace it with 2 small 2-inch pieces of flex track and the reverse loop will still be detected.  The loop comes from that turnout at the far left, because power coming out via the straight leg comes back in to the curved leg as reversed polarity.  (I'm sure you already know this, but someone else reading this might not, so I tend to write things to try to explain to anyone whose is new to this reversed loop concept.)

Without seeing the full layout and what is connected to those other turnouts to see if there are multiple places where you would need isolation, let's presume each of the tracks connecting to those turnouts are stubs, i.e., they don't go anywhere; then the place where you need isolation is that curved section of flex track at the top right part of the shown trackage.

I've attached a modified version of your ANY file with the 2 places where I'd add the isolators; these are where I put cuts into existing flex track pieces in that top right curved area (these are marked as "cut here"); if you disconnect either of the 2 cut points, you'll see that the "reverse loop detection" is gone.  (btw, I also replaced that 90-degree cross with 2 2-inch flex track pieces so you can see that the crossing is not the problem.)

After you get through this reverse loop resolution, there is another item for you to look at: some of the flex track ends are curved below the minimum curvature you have told AR to look for.  See the Setting tab, "minimum radius" settings and the "alert on too sharp curves" checkbox.  To find these places, resolved the "reversed loop" condition or turn off the checkbox for detecting it, make all of the track in this ANY file into an AR section colored white and then check the flex track ends for a small red marking - what AR uses when the curvature is smaller than the minimum allowed; you probably will need to zoom in to look at these ends as the marking is very small because the part of the track where the problem occurs is very small in length.

[Future-Digital]

Hello, Tom,

I am aware that I have a few problems with over-curved Flex. I'm slowly moving everything from sectional to flex, and just haven't gotten everything lined up, yet.

You mentioned seeing the whole layout for other problems. Well, there are plenty, so here it is. I stripped everything but the track, a few bumpers, and several labels out of the enclosed .ANY file.

Would appreciate your, and anyone else's comments.

Thank you.


Bill

[Tom Springer]

Bill,

An interesting layout.  Might be more interesting to see how you get around it, where you physically get from one "outside" part into the interior and back out.  It also looks like most of the track is at the same general height; maybe you might give some thought to elevating some of the track more where you have the curved trestles so that when looking at the multiple tracks from inside the layout area, the trestles appear 'high' (maybe spanning a gorge or canyon) and everything doesn't look 'flat' and at the same level.

Since you've chosen Bachmann track, I wonder if you are planning on using the Bachmann DCC control system; have you decided on what reversing controller you will use?

In model railroading, we tend to mix up terminology when we talk about things, and "reverse loops" is one area where we sometimes "play fast and loose with terminology".

The general term we should be using most of the time is "reversing section", meaning any part of trackage where the electrical polarity has to be changed ('reversed').

The "reversing loop" term is a subset of the "reversing section" category, and originally came because of a simplified true 'loop' where semi-circular track was connected to both legs of a single turnout, so that a train running 'forward' effectively changed direction as it went back through the turnout.

The term "reversing track" usually described a point-to-point type of arrangement where a train ran to the end of a track ('bumper') and then reversed direction, such as running a train into a stub-ended station, then 'backing' it out to leave the station. The "reversing track" concept was to allow this to occur automatically after a predetermined delay.

The reason for the above is that my old, and probably vastly out-dated, knowledge of Bachmann facilities was that they provided (originally) only a special type of support, just for the "reversing track" function.  Your layout with the true "reversing section" created by that curved track will need a reversing controller that supports that capability, such as the DigiTrax, NCE or other controllers.  I hope you will make sure whatever one you look at actually says "reversing section".

Looking forward to seeing your progress.  Should be a first-class layout that you can show off to others and help keep the hobby alive.